Scoring plays and penalties

[NorCalMike]

We went round and round on this one today at our off season rules study group.

A 3 and 5 @ B40.  A1 takes a handoff and goes around end for a touchdown. At the B 10 yard line he holds the ball out in the face of the defense.  After he scores he spikes the ball and heads toward his bench when B66 knocks him to the ground.

What options do you give both teams? Does the option one team chooses effect the options the other team gets?

[Ump33]

Team options are the same but the choice of the first team will probably influence the choice of the second team.

In the OP, all fouls are “either / or” … the offended team has the option to enforce on the try or the ensuing kick-off and they will be enforced in the order of occurrence. Once the enforcement of the first foul is determined, that information can be used by the team in choosing how to enforce the second foul and so on …

1st foul on A for taunting … “A1 holds the ball out in the face of the defense” – B will choose to enforce “either / or.”

2nd foul on A for “After he scores he spikes the ball” - B will choose to enforce “either / or.”

3rd foul on B for “B66 knocks him to the ground” - A will now choose to “enforce “either / or.”

[Atlanta Blue]

I'm with Ump 33.  But remember, none of the fouls "offset".  Say B chooses one of A's fouls on the try, and one on the KO.  A chooses to "offset" the try foul by taking B's foul on the try as well.  March the ball back from the 3 to the 18.  But B's foul is now enforced as half the distance, so the LOS will only move to the 9.

[Ralph Damren]

I'd bring both captains together and deliver the following messages : "Captain A, your 'Mr. Touchdown' has become 'Mr. Ejected player' for two unsportsmanlike fouls". "We have 3 fouls and they all get penalized. Capt. B, you go first as the choices are in order the fouls occurred. You can : (1) have the try moved back to the 18 and the kickoff moved back to the 25; (2) have the try moved back to the 33; (3) have the kickoff moved back to the 12 1/2." Once Capt. B has made his choice I would turn to Capt. A and say : "You can now get 15 (or half the distance if B chose #1 or 3 and A wanted it on the try) back, would you want that on the try or kickoff?" I would huddle the crew first and send the two wing officials to the sideline with an explanation to the coaches so that they may yell suggestions to their captains. Coach A should be informed that Mr. Touchdown will not score any more today.

[HLinNC]

I

would huddle the crew first and send the two wing officials to the sideline with an explanation to the coaches

Not before I've had a shot of Jameson's you won't!     
 
 

[VALJ]

To be honest, I'd probably just go to the coaches.  First off, VA requires that I go talk to the coach to explain that Mr. Touchdown's done for the night anyway.  Second off, for something that's going to just confuse Bubba (B's captain) and Sparky (A's captain), let's not give the kids a chance to screw it up.  It would hurt their chances with the homecoming queen.

[Ump33]

To be honest, I'd probably just go to the coaches.  First off, VA requires that I go talk to the coach to explain that Mr. Touchdown's done for the night anyway.  Second off, for something that's going to just confuse Bubba (B's captain) and Sparky (A's captain), let's not give the kids a chance to screw it up.  It would hurt their chances with the homecoming queen.

+1 ... I agree that there are times when a brief explanation to each coach is good idea.

[prab]

I agree that when a penalty situation (such as the OP) comes up, it would be wise to consult the coaches prior to enforcement. 

However, there is that sticky problem of Rule 10.1 saying that the options should be explained to the captain(s) and that the captain(s) should then make a choice.  There is no mention of consulting the coach(s) first.  This site has had numerous posts saying that it is our job as officials to enforce the rules as they are written and not as we would like to have them written.  Remember the past discussions on "helping" a captain at the coin toss when he either has or is about to choose to kick off?

The simple solution is to change Rule 10.1 and allow officials to consult EITHER the captain or coach prior to penalty enforcement.  Changing Rule 3.2.3 to allow for coaches to inform officials before the coin toss as to what their choice will be might not be a bad idea either.

[Ralph Damren]

I had proposed a rule change a couple of years ago for coaches to direct penalty enforcement choices to the officials but it failed in subcommittee. The rationale was that there is no foul for a coach to yell instructions to his captain(s) and that was a leadership experience that shouldn't be taken away. In the real world, I would try to get the options as complicated as this OP to the coaches. Maybe I was being lazy in suggesting the wing guys approach the coaches, as it probably would be better explained by the white hat and would ensure each coach was getting the same message. If so, white hat should approach coach A first to inform him of Mr. Touchdown's future inactivity and an explanation of A's choice after B makes theirs. Coach B should be reminded that after his captain's choices that the B penalty will negate some of it.

[FLAHL]

This site has had numerous posts saying that it is our job as officials to enforce the rules as they are written and not as we would like to have them written.  Remember the past discussions on "helping" a captain at the coin toss when he either has or is about to choose to kick off?

The best officials that I know use both their knowledge of the rule book and the judgement they gained through years of experience to officiate the game.

[Rulesman]

The best officials that I know use both their knowledge of the rule book and the judgement they gained through years of experience to officiate the game.

+ "a whole bunch" (+1 isn't enough).

[NorCalMike]

When discussing philosophy last night, our leader told us to try and make the UNS one continuous act and only throw on flag on Mr. Touchdown. How do you all feel about that?

[Ralph Damren]

When discussing philosophy last night, our leader told us to try and make the UNS one continuous act and only throw on flag on Mr. Touchdown. How do you all feel about that?

I agree with your leader's philosophy. Mr. TD's acts of celebration could be considered as one continuous act of unsportsmanlike behavior and one flag plus B66's vigilante response probably would be enough punishment to fit the crime. B's DBPF was a reaction to A's action ,so they couldn't be ruled as simultaneously occurring, but the enforcement would be less complicated than the OP. If you have dueling dead ball fouls....ie..A's Bubba & B's Tugboat slugging it out... don't try to guess who threw the first punch , just toss 'em both and rule where the fouls occurred simultaneously and no measurement would be applied.

[bama_stripes]

The rationale was that there is no foul for a coach to yell instructions to his captain(s) and that was a leadership experience that shouldn't be taken away.

\

And yet we allow the HC to call TOs from the sideline, rather than signalling an on-field player ?

[VALJ]

I agree that when a penalty situation (such as the OP) comes up, it would be wise to consult the coaches prior to enforcement. 

However, there is that sticky problem of Rule 10.1 saying that the options should be explained to the captain(s) and that the captain(s) should then make a choice.  There is no mention of consulting the coach(s) first.  This site has had numerous posts saying that it is our job as officials to enforce the rules as they are written and not as we would like to have them written.  Remember the past discussions on "helping" a captain at the coin toss when he either has or is about to choose to kick off?

This is going to confuse the heck out of Bubba the team captain, and he's going to look for guidance from his coach anyway.  I'd rather make sure that the coach knows exactly what's going on in a situation like this so he gets the right information, rather than rely on Bubba to hear what I say, yell it to the coach, explain it again to Bubba since he didn't get it right the first time... 

99% of the time, I'm going to go straight to Bubba and let him deal with it.  For an enforcement with this many moving parts - and since I'm going to be going to one coach anyway to discuss Mr. Touchdown's decision to disqualify himself from further participation in that evening's contest anyway - I want to talk to the organ grinder himself.

[Atlanta Blue]

I agree that when a penalty situation (such as the OP) comes up, it would be wise to consult the coaches prior to enforcement. 

However, there is that sticky problem of Rule 10.1 saying that the options should be explained to the captain(s) and that the captain(s) should then make a choice.  There is no mention of consulting the coach(s) first.  This site has had numerous posts saying that it is our job as officials to enforce the rules as they are written and not as we would like to have them written.  Remember the past discussions on "helping" a captain at the coin toss when he either has or is about to choose to kick off?

The simple solution is to change Rule 10.1 and allow officials to consult EITHER the captain or coach prior to penalty enforcement.  Changing Rule 3.2.3 to allow for coaches to inform officials before the coin toss as to what their choice will be might not be a bad idea either.

There is a real easy solution.  Walk the captain over near the sideline, and explain the options while the coach listens in.  There is nothing in the rule that says WHERE you have to consult with the captain.  You met the letter of the rule (if you feel that's necessary), and got the options to the coach.

I agree, I would rather see the rule changed.  But in the mean time, there are easy solutions.

[Rulesman]

This is going to confuse the heck out of Bubba the team captain, and he's going to look for guidance from his coach anyway.  I'd rather make sure that the coach knows exactly what's going on in a situation like this so he gets the right information, rather than rely on Bubba to hear what I say, yell it to the coach, explain it again to Bubba since he didn't get it right the first time... 

I see nothing wrong with involving the coach directly instead of going through a third party. I even did this in my college games more often than not. If nothing else, it keeps things moving.

[busman]

My first thought was AB's. I may be talking to Captain Bubba, but loud enough and in proximity for Coach Solomon to hear. Besides, I have to inform them of the ejection anyway.

And speaking of that, that is why I would be against combining A's foul into 1. His actions clearly incited B's action, so they both deserve ejection. Two USC fouls is automatic, so there is no debate.

[Ralph Damren]

  If we could get dead ball fouls to offset; life, the game and penalty enforcement would be much simpler  . How many would favor : (10-2-5) "If both teams commit dead ball fouls after the play has ended but before the ball is marked ready for play, the fouls would cancel on a pro-rata basis." In the OP, 15 yards would be assessed A ,either on the try or kickoff. A much simpler and fairer method then our current one. 

[AlUpstateNY]

There is a real easy solution.  Walk the captain over near the sideline, and explain the options while the coach listens in.  There is nothing in the rule that says WHERE you have to consult with the captain.  You met the letter of the rule (if you feel that's necessary), and got the options to the coach.

I agree, I would rather see the rule changed.  But in the mean time, there are easy solutions.

I agree completely that walking the Captain to within earshot of his Coach satisfies both paying the due respect to the Captain, and providing an option for his Coach to be of assistance if necessary.  Paying respect to the Captain can be of great value, should you need assistance, and respect, from him later in the contest.  After the initial decision has been made, I would provide the same service to the other Captain, regarding his choices.

Any additional time necessary to make these explanations may prove of value allowing EVERYONE to take a breath regarding all that has, and will, then happen .

[Rulesman]

If we could get dead ball fouls to offset; life, the game and penalty enforcement would be much simpler  . How many would favor : (10-2-5) "If both teams commit dead ball fouls after the play has ended but before the ball is marked ready for play, the fouls would cancel on a pro-rata basis."

I've put this into a poll for you.

[NorCalMike]

When we were talking about this at our meeting, I said I would have the coaches involved. This is a much more complicated than our average penalty situation. I could explain the options to the Captains who are immediately going to look towards the coach. Simpler just to ask the coach.

[Ralph Damren]

I've put this into a poll for you.

Thanks, Rulesman, I plan on submitting this proposed change when the time comes. Twice over the last few years the NCAA version has made it out of committee to the floor for a final vote but failed. My perceived cause for failure is that NCAA would "wash" all dead ball fouls even if there were six against one team and one against the other. The concern was that this change would allow some fouls to go unpunished and my proposal would alleviate that.

[AlUpstateNY]

When we were talking about this at our meeting, I said I would have the coaches involved. This is a much more complicated than our average penalty situation. I could explain the options to the Captains who are immediately going to look towards the coach. Simpler just to ask the coach.

If simplicity is the objective, not bothering with all this detail, declaring the penalties off-setting and replay the down, might very well satisfy everyone, but could cause problems. 

Not to be hyper pickey, but NF:2-32-5 specifically designates "A Captain" to represent his team during:
a. The pregame and overtime coin toss.
b. Penalty decisions following a foul
c. Ball placement on a try, kickoff, after a safety, FC, awarded FC,touchback, start overtime.

Even when, "This is a much more complicated than our average penalty situation" the Captain has earned and is entitled to the repesct of his position (which may be an important asset later on in the game) and can be accomplished by explaining options, near enough to the HC, so he can monitor and influence his Captain.   .