3-1 question

[clearwall]

On a punt play, B44 clips A14 in the end zone while the ball is in the air. B4 catches the ball at the B3 and returns to the B15. During B's run, B33 holds A10 @ B11.

Since team B is not yet 'in posession' you cannot enforce the clipping in the endzone, correct? This would force the enforcement spot to be the PSK spot which is the B4. A will decline the holding and take the clipping which would be 1/2 distance and leave the ball B 1/10 @ B2?

[Osric Pureheart]

I've been (unsuccessfully) looking for an AR to support this, but my first instinct is that you can enforce this one from the spot of the foul.  10-2-3-a:

Under postscrimmage kick enforcement rules, fouls by Team B that satisfy the conditions in paragraph b (below) are treated as if Team B had been in possession at the time the foul was committed, even though by Rule 2-4-1-b-3 team possession had not changed.

Emphasis mine.  If you're doing that, then you now have a team-in-possession foul behind the basic spot, and that's the 1 in 3-and-1.  Anyone come back to tell me what I'm missing?

[clearwall]

Thats interesting, I hadnt read that. Thanks for pointing it out. So that makes me think you CAN have a safety on the play.

[Legacy Zebra]

You absolutely have a safety on this play. All of the PSK provisions are met: the kick was not a successful try or FG, it was not in OT, the ball crossed the neutral zone, the foul occurred before the end of the kick, and Team B will next put the ball in play. So now we apply the 3-1 principal with the PSK spot (B3) as the basic spot, the foul occurred in the endzone, behind the basic spot, so we penalize from the spot of the foul which leaves us with a safety. While the rule only says fouls by Team A result in a safety if they're in the endzone, A.R. 8-5-1-II and V both apply this principal to Team B and rule it a safety.

[Kalle]

While the rule only says fouls by Team A result in a safety if they're in the endzone

Actually rule 8-5-1-b only talks about offending team, not team A, so both team A and B are covered.

[Legacy Zebra]

You're right. I knew I had read that somewhere, but all I could find was the stuff in 9-1 and 10-2-2-b which both say Team A. Thanks for the clarification.

[flyingmonkey]

Safety.  The foul is a PSK foul since it occurred during the kick and at the end of the play, B is in possession of the ball.  The PSK spot is the B3.  Since the foul is behind the PSK spot it is enforced as a spot foul.  Safety.  The holding foul is declined

[bossman72]

On a punt play, B44 clips A14 in the end zone while the ball is in the air. B4 catches the ball at the B3 and returns to the B15. During B's run, B33 holds A10 @ B11.

Since team B is not yet 'in posession' you cannot enforce the clipping in the endzone, correct? This would force the enforcement spot to be the PSK spot which is the B4. A will decline the holding and take the clipping which would be 1/2 distance and leave the ball B 1/10 @ B2?

While you guys are correct that the enforcement of the clipping foul alone would result in a safety, Team B is not going to let this happen.  They will accept A's foul and offset the clip and replay 4th down.  We should not give options to the coach in this instance as the choice is obvious.

[Kalle]

While you guys are correct that the enforcement of the clipping foul alone would result in a safety, Team B is not going to let this happen.  They will accept A's foul and offset the clip and replay 4th down.  We should not give options to the coach in this instance as the choice is obvious.

There is no team A foul in the OP. Clipping by team B followed by a hold by team B. Choice is obvious, you are right in that, but the choice is the safety.

[Etref]

While you guys are correct that the enforcement of the clipping foul alone would result in a safety, Team B is not going to let this happen.  They will accept A's foul and offset the clip and replay 4th down.  We should not give options to the coach in this instance as the choice is obvious.

You must have misread. Both fouls are against B!

[bossman72]

Early stages of dyslexia!  I read it as A10 holding.  Sorry guys!