Illegal Batting

[Legacy Zebra]

Here's the situation:

4/10 at the A-10. The punter muffs the snap and the ball rolls to the A-5 where a Team B player bats the ball forward to keep the punter from recovering. The ball rolls into the end zone where it is muffed over the end line.

The way I see it, it's going to be Team A's ball at the 20 no matter what, either by touchback because the bat added new impetus or by enforcing the bat from the previous spot with LOD. The resource that I got this question from says it should be Team A's ball at the 30 after enforcing the illegal bat from the 20 after the touchback. It's a run play that ends behind the line of scrimmage so the basic spot is the previous spot and the foul was by the team not in possession so it is enforced from the basic spot. What am I missing?

[Legacy Zebra]

But according to 10-2-2-d, in order to enforce from the 20, the foul has to occur after a change of possession. This foul occurs before the change. The only AR I have found is 8-6-1-III, but that deals with an interception and the foul occurs after the interception.

[Johnponz]

Hold the fort.  It is next going to be A's ball at the 20.  B added an impetus to the ball causing it to go out of As end zone.  B caused the TB which makes it As ball at the 20.

Enforcement of the penalty would make it the same As ball at the 20 1st and 10.

I had to diagram it out to see what was happening.

In interest of full disclosure, I am deleting my original answer because it was all messed up.

[Legacy Zebra]

Yes, it should be Team A's ball. There was a typo in the OP. I'll change it.

[Kalle]

Out of curiosity, what was the reasoning of your resource to enforce this foul from A-20?

[Andrew McCarthy]

... It's a run play that ends behind the line of scrimmage...

Is it?  If so, where is the end of the run?

... enforcing the bat from the previous spot with LOD...

So if it was 4th and 15 we would be giving the ball to Team B because the penalty didn't reach the line to gain?  Do we have Loss of Down penalties on fouls by Team B?

[Johnponz]

It was 4th and 10 so the 10 yard illegal bat penalty will give A a first down on the 20.

It has to be a run play because it is not a pass or a kick (free or scrimmage) play.  By definition this is a running play.  The run ends in the endzone (which makes the results of the play a  TB).  Fouls by B are enforced from the previous spot (in this case A's 10).

[SanDiegoStryker]

Why does the run end in the endzone? The snapper never had possession right?

Does it end in the endzone because the ball is declared dead there, 2-25-8-a? Or is the snap a backward pass so the run ends at the spot of the snap, 2-25-8-e?

[Johnponz]

I think it is really immaterial but I would use 2-25-8 (a)

[Kalle]

The snap is a run that ends at the line of scrimmage. The run ends where possession is lost, not where it is regained or ball becomes dead. This is just semantics in this case, enforcement is from the previous spot, no loss of down (the penalty clause for illegal batting and the LOD rule are poorly written, there is never a LOD for a team B foul if it happens before a COP).

[Johnponz]

I agree with all of what Kalle said so 1st and 10 for A at the 20 (in either case)

[Andrew McCarthy]

... is the snap a backward pass so the run ends at the spot of the snap, 2-25-8-e?

This.

[James]

Is it?  If so, where is the end of the run?
So if it was 4th and 15 we would be giving the ball to Team B because the penalty didn't reach the line to gain?  Do we have Loss of Down penalties on fouls by Team B?

The LOD would not apply to the penalty by B - only if the penalty had been by A, so in your case you would have 4th and 5 if the penalty was accepted.

[Johnponz]

Agreed.  I never meant LOD to apply.

[Wingmanbp]

Would it not be 1 & 10 for A because of the Touchback. regardless of what down it occurred on? If it was 3rd down and 5 and the same thing happened doesn't it still end with A's ball at the A20?

[Kalle]

Would it not be 1 & 10 for A because of the Touchback. regardless of what down it occurred on?

Yes, if team A takes the touchback. If time expired during the down, team A might elect to take the penalty, even if it does not result in a first down (say it was 3rd and 15 from the A-10).

[Wingmanbp]

Ok Gotcha. Just checking

[Legacy Zebra]

Ok, a couple things. Yes, the LOD was me not paying attention and was just a mistake. Second, this play was apparently taken from a 2013 CFO test. On the CFO test, the previous spot was the A20. This website changed the previous spot to the A10, but did not change the answer/explanation to match.

[schult79]

I need help with this related play:

4/15 @ A30. Team A's snap is over the punter's head. While rolling on the ground near the A10 the punter kicks the ball out of the end zone. Ruling?

I'm thinking B has the option of B 1/G @ A5 or a safety, but I am not sure if a loose ball foul by A is enforced at the spot of the foul or previous spot. Thoughts? Please provide rule references if possible.

[Johnponz]

The foul is enforced at the spot of the foul.  The only fouls by A enforced at the previous spots are HIPI fouls, Holding, Illegal block in the back, Personal Fouls, Illegal use of hands.  All other fouls are enforced under the 3 and 1 principle. 

This is a loose ball pay so basic spot is previous spot.  The (Non-HIPI) foul occurred behind the basic spot so the foul is enforced from there.

Do not have book on me so can't provide rules references.

[Kalle]

9-4-4 and 10-2-2-c-1.

My memory device for penalties behind the neutral zone is "fouls against an opponent are from the previous spot, fouls against the ball are from the spot of the foul."

[Rulesman]

4/15 @ A30. Team A's snap is over the punter's head. While rolling on the ground near the A10 the punter kicks the ball out of the end zone. Ruling?

I'm thinking B has the option of B 1/G @ A5 or a safety, but I am not sure if a loose ball foul by A is enforced at the spot of the foul or previous spot. Thoughts? Please provide rule references if possible.

Spot foul is the correct enforcement. I had this very play happen twice in one season and 3 times in my career. In two of the three occurrences the offended team was the same team - once at home, once on the road. They took the ball both times, rather than the safety.

[bossman72]

9-4-4 and 10-2-2-c-1.

My memory device for penalties behind the neutral zone is "fouls against an opponent are from the previous spot, fouls against the ball are from the spot of the foul."

Careful... Illegal touching is previous spot enforcement

[Kalle]

Careful... Illegal touching is previous spot enforcement

Hah, I knew somebody would bite The memory device applies only to basic spot fouls. Other fouls that are against the ball and from the PS are kicking team member going OOB, using a tee on a scrimmage kick and concealing the ball.

[bossman72]

Hah, I knew somebody would bite The memory device applies only to basic spot fouls. Other fouls that are against the ball and from the PS are kicking team member going OOB, using a tee on a scrimmage kick and concealing the ball.

I just use the HIPI mnemonic but with different words:

Holding
Illegal Blocks
Personal Fouls
Illegal Touching