Play Situation

[bmtjim]

4/4 team A on Team B 28 yd. line.  Team A runner breaks a run up the middle and at the 1 yd. line thinking he has scored a TD, drops the ball which rolls into the EZ and comes to rest with no player attempting to secure it.  No official makes any kind of signal.  Do you award a TD to team A or does the ball come back to the spot of the fumble?

[ALStripes17]

4/4 team A on Team B 28 yd. line.  Team A runner breaks a run up the middle and at the 1 yd. line thinking he has scored a TD, drops the ball which rolls into the EZ and comes to rest with no player attempting to secure it.  No official makes any kind of signal.  Do you award a TD to team A or does the ball come back to the spot of the fumble?

Definitely not a TD by the letter of the law.  My first thought is to award B a touchback although I'm not an NCAA guy.  Would 4th down fumble rule apply here?

[bossman72]

4/4 team A on Team B 28 yd. line.  Team A runner breaks a run up the middle and at the 1 yd. line thinking he has scored a TD, drops the ball which rolls into the EZ and comes to rest with no player attempting to secure it.  No official makes any kind of signal.  Do you award a TD to team A or does the ball come back to the spot of the fumble?

By rule this is a touchdown.  There is an AR regarding this, but I'm too lazy to look it up.  haha

[Legacy Zebra]

This is a touchdown. 7-2-5:

When a backward pass or fumble comes to rest inbounds and no player attempts to secure it, the ball becomes dead and belongs to the passing or fumbling team at the dead-ball spot.

The ball is in Team B's endzone and belongs to Team A, that's a touchdown. 8-2-1-c:

A fumble or backward pass is recovered, caught, intercepted or awarded in the opponent’s end zone.

AR 8-2-1-X:

Ball carrier A33 is running toward the Team B goal line. He drops the ball just inside the one-yard line and, thinking he has scored a touchdown, circles through the end zone and runs to his team area. There is no touchdown signal by any official. The fumbled ball hits the ground just outside or just inside the goal line, rolls along the ground in the end zone, and is declared dead there when it comes to rest and no player attempts to recover it. RULING: Touchdown. The ball belongs to the team last in possession at the dead-ball spot. By definition an awarded fumble in the opponent’s end zone is a touchdown.

[ALStripes17]

By rule this is a touchdown.  There is an AR regarding this, but I'm too lazy to look it up.  haha

Touchdown
AR 8.2.1(X)

Good call sir.  I learned something new about NCAA today

[bossman72]

Touchdown
AR 8.2.1(X)

Good call sir.  I learned something new about NCAA today

The key to this play is that no official signals anything.  If an official signals something, now we play it like an inadvertent whistle.  See Texas Tech vs. TCU this past year

[sj_31]

It's a TD in NFHS too. Also 8-2-1-c.

[FLbackjudge]

Sorry about the incomplete post--must have hit send too early.

When I saw this play in last year's Texas Tech vs TCU game, I thought the officials got it wrong based on 7-2-5.  However, the replay casebook has the following play:  #118  "First and goal on the B-5.  A22 runs to B's goal line. loses the ball prior to it breaking the plane of the goal line, and the officials rule touchdown.  The ball comes to rest in the end zone with no player attempting to recover it.  RULING: Reviewable play, regarding whether A22 scored a touchdown before he lost the ball.  Reverse to no score, A 2-Goal on the B-1.  If the ball becomes dead in the end zone with no team possessing it, the ball is placed at the spot of the fumble.  If the ball is dead in the field of play, the ball is placed at that spot (Rule 12-3-1 and 12-3-3-d)."

Neither of the Rule 12 references says anything about the issue of where the ball is declared dead,and 7-2-5 says it belongs to the fumbling team at the dead ball spot (which makes it a TD).  So the ruling on the casebook play seems to me to be in contradiction with 7-2-5. 

[Andrew McCarthy]

What happens if the officials rule TD but he lost the ball before crossing the goal line and the ball went out the side or back of the end zone?  Review and reverse to a touchback?

[FLbackjudge]

Yes.  That's  touchback and could be awarded after review.

[Kalle]

So the ruling on the casebook play seems to me to be in contradiction with 7-2-5.

I don't think it is. Remember that this is an inadvertent whistle situation where a live ball is incorrectly declared dead. The rules regarding this are different with replay and without. I don't understand why the case book references 12-3-3-d, as there is no clear recovery.

[FLbackjudge]

I understand that logic, but we don't review inadvertent whistles.  This is a reviewable play because it is a potential scoring play.  My problem is that 7-2-5 says the ball belongs to the fumbling team at the dead ball spot, which is in the end zone, and I can't find a rule (only a Case Book play) that tells me to put the ball on the 1-yard line.  Nevertheless, if it happens in a game when I'm in the booth, that's where I'll put it.

[Kalle]

Rule 4-1-2-b-1 says that the team in possession may elect to put the ball in play where the possession is lost. I think we revert to this when the replay rules that the touchdown was not scored and the ball was blown dead with no immediate recovery by either team.

[FLbackjudge]

Rule 4-1-2-b-1 refers to a ball in player possession (since no one tried to recover the loose ball it was not in player possession).  4-1-2-b-2 refers to a ball loose from a fumble, but excepts Rule 12.  My reading of that exception is that the inadvertent whistle rule is moot when there is a replay.  But enough pummeling a deceased equus caallus--I'm going with the Case Book even if I'm not persuaded that there's a rule to support it.  I try to base my decisions on the principle of WWRD (What would Rogers do?)

[bossman72]

I understand that logic, but we don't review inadvertent whistles.  This is a reviewable play because it is a potential scoring play.  My problem is that 7-2-5 says the ball belongs to the fumbling team at the dead ball spot, which is in the end zone, and I can't find a rule (only a Case Book play) that tells me to put the ball on the 1-yard line.  Nevertheless, if it happens in a game when I'm in the booth, that's where I'll put it.

When the official signals touchdown, this becomes an inadvertent whistle (signal) situation.  Ball goes back to the spot of the fumble.

If no official signaled touchdown, then we award the ball to the team last in possession at the dead ball spot.  This would be a touchdown.

[James]

Just to double check - why is no one calling this 1&G on B's 1 due to the 4th down fumble rule?

Ah - went to the rulebook myself,
the 4th down fumble rule applies to a fumble
'caught or recovered' by a teammate and that doesn't happen in this instance.

[Wingmanbp]

When the official signals touchdown, this becomes an inadvertent whistle (signal) situation.  Ball goes back to the spot of the fumble.

If no official signaled touchdown, then we award the ball to the team last in possession at the dead ball spot.  This would be a touchdown.

So let me get this straight. If he signals touchdown its not a touchdown but if he doesn't it is? What since does that make. He would be correct in signaling TD because that is what it is by the rule stated above. What is the official suppose to do just stand there and look confused? 

[Kalle]

So let me get this straight. If he signals touchdown its not a touchdown but if he doesn't it is? What since does that make. He would be correct in signaling TD because that is what it is by the rule stated above. What is the official suppose to do just stand there and look confused? 

It is not a touchdown when the official signals touchdown and kills the play. It would become a touchdown if the official had not signalled and let the play continue, if nobody had picked up the ball.

The right thing for an official is not to give any inadvertent signal which causes the ball to become dead (most often a whistle but a TD signal is one of those, too). Looking confused is optional, just don't be confused

[Wingmanbp]

It is not a touchdown when the official signals touchdown and kills the play. It would become a touchdown if the official had not signalled and let the play continue, if nobody had picked up the ball.

The right thing for an official is not to give any inadvertent signal which causes the ball to become dead (most often a whistle but a TD signal is one of those, too). Looking confused is optional, just don't be confused

Well there comes a point when its obvious that no one is recovering the ball. Therefore you have to kill the play somehow someway

[Kalle]

Well there comes a point when its obvious that no one is recovering the ball. Therefore you have to kill the play somehow someway

Yes, but then the whistle only indicates that the ball became dead by rule before the whistle, as usual.

[Wingmanbp]

Yes, but then the whistle only indicates that the ball became dead by rule before the whistle, as usual.

So would you not signal TD then?

[Kalle]

So would you not signal TD then?

Yes, I would signal touchdown if a loose ball comes to rest in the end zone and nobody attempts to recover the ball, in a reasonable time frame.

I don't really understand where you are getting at. I find this situation very simple (apart from the IR issue FLBJ pointed out). You should not whistle or signal anything when a fumble from the field of play enters the end zone. If you do, follow the IW provisions, with or without a clear and immediate recovery, if no IR. If you don't, wait until somebody recovers and then either let the play continue (if by team B) or whistle and signal TD (if by team A, don't signal TD if it is a 4th down / try). If nobody recovers and the players start to leave the field / go to their huddles, whistle and signal TD.

[Legacy Zebra]

I don't know that I would signal touchdown. It might be better to stop the clock and report to the R what happened and let him make an announcement. That way everybody knows you did what you did on purpose rather than inadvertently signaling TD.

[Etref]

 

Also gets more heads involved to be sure

[TxSkyBolt]

It's called playful Devil Advocating Kalle. I finds it humorous.


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