Author Topic: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual  (Read 25723 times)

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2014, 07:13:01 AM »
Under the new rule, if you blow the RFP whistle while "K is not out there" won't you almost surely have to immediately blow a dead ball foul for not having at least 4 players on each side of the kicker after the RFP and until the kick?  Why not just flag K for DOG if "K is not out there".

Although I may not have been very articulate, in my OP, K "is out there" within the established time constraints and waiting for the RFP whistle prior to getting into their actual kick formation.  I realize that the RFP whistle does not have to be held up until K is ready, rather it can go sooner if K signals ready.
Goodness, I did not consider the new rule - so shame on me...

Offline jg-me

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2014, 08:09:15 AM »
Under the new rule, if you blow the RFP whistle while "K is not out there" won't you almost surely have to immediately blow a dead ball foul for not having at least 4 players on each side of the kicker after the RFP and until the kick?  Why not just flag K for DOG if "K is not out there".

Although I may not have been very articulate, in my OP, K "is out there" within the established time constraints and waiting for the RFP whistle prior to getting into their actual kick formation.  I realize that the RFP whistle does not have to be held up until K is ready, rather it can go sooner if K signals ready.

Clearly the kickoff formation rule would be simpler to officiate and coach if the foul did not occur until the ball is actually kicked. However, it seems the intent of the new rule is that when K takes it kickoff formation there shall be at least four players on each side of the ball. If K is not yet on the field or is in the process of getting into formation when the RFP is signaled there is no reason to nitpick and immediately call a foul. Allow the formation to be established and then determine its legality.

Offline Kalle

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2014, 08:59:58 AM »
Out of curiosity, why is the NF rule written as it is, instead of mirroring the NCAA rule where the player count requirement happens only at the kick?

Offline prab

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2014, 09:48:42 AM »
Out of curiosity, why is the NF rule written as it is, instead of mirroring the NCAA rule where the player count requirement happens only at the kick?

In an effort to reduce the risk of injury on kickoffs, the rules committee approved two new requirements in Rule 6-1-3 for the kicking team. First, at least four members of the kicking team must be on each side of the kicker, and, second, other than the kicker, no members of the kicking team may be more than five yards behind the kicking teamís free-kick line.

By making this a dead ball foul, the chances for a re-kick are eliminated.


Offline Kalle

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #29 on: June 19, 2014, 10:33:44 AM »
By making this a dead ball foul, the chances for a re-kick are eliminated.

NF hasn't considered the NCAA-style tack-on for K fouls on kicks (almost all K fouls before the kick ends can be enforced from the end of the last run, if R is in possession when the down ends)? That has all but eliminated rekicks in NCAA rule games, I think.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2014, 10:56:24 AM »
Clearly the kickoff formation rule would be simpler to officiate and coach if the foul did not occur until the ball is actually kicked. However, it seems the intent of the new rule is that when K takes it kickoff formation there shall be at least four players on each side of the ball kicker.

Unfortunately, it's not the "ball", it's the "kicker".  But who is the kicker?  The person that kicks the ball.  Well, if they haven't kicked it yet, then there isn't a "kicker".  I think not making it the "ball" was a huge oversight by the committee, especially if they want it to be a dead ball foul.

Offline Sumstine

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2014, 11:44:56 AM »
By making this a dead ball foul, the chances for a re-kick are eliminated.

Not exactly. If the kicker comes in at an angle, crosses over a player and creates a side with only three there will not be enough time to shut it down before the ball is away. Once the ball is away, especially on a short kick there will be some contact even if whistles are blowing. We then will re-kick.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2014, 12:18:34 PM »
True, but at least we'll be shutting down the play (by staying on the whistles until everyone stops) and preventing (hopefully) the worst of the contact from happening.

I'd love to see a tack-on option in NFHS, but I suspect we'll never see it, since NFHS doesn't seem to like exceptions to penalty spots.  Ralph may be able to provide some insight on that.

Offline Rulesman

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #33 on: June 19, 2014, 12:49:52 PM »
Unfortunately, it's not the "ball", it's the "kicker".  But who is the kicker?  The person that kicks the ball.  Well, if they haven't kicked it yet, then there isn't a "kicker".  I think not making it the "ball" was a huge oversight by the committee, especially if they want it to be a dead ball foul.
In speaking with a member of the committee a day or so ago (not Ralph), he could have sworn the language that came in the original proposal said "ball", rather than "kicker." He was going back to look at it and opined "ball" was the intent. I took that to mean don't be surprised to see a change, at least in interpretation, until such time as the language could be corrected. Stay tuned...

Hey, Ralph, help us out here!
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #34 on: June 19, 2014, 01:52:53 PM »
True, but at least we'll be shutting down the play (by staying on the whistles until everyone stops) and preventing (hopefully) the worst of the contact from happening.
Actually, that's the WORST case for potential injuries.  The ball has been kicked.  One official hits his whistle, some kids near him stop, some don't.  Other officials hear the first whistle and echo with theirs since action is so spread out.  Now you have some players still playing at full speed, while others are letting off.  Those are the times when someone gets hurt.

Let it go, treat it as a live ball foul, and if we have to rekick, then rekick (although I would rather a tack on).  It beats killing a play where not everyone is going at the same speed.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #35 on: June 19, 2014, 02:59:37 PM »
Don't you just love rule changes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >:D LOL eAt& :!# cRaZy hEaDbAnG

I've still never recovered from the horsecollar tackle debacle.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2014, 10:00:22 AM »
Actually, that's the WORST case for potential injuries.  The ball has been kicked.  One official hits his whistle, some kids near him stop, some don't.  Other officials hear the first whistle and echo with theirs since action is so spread out.  Now you have some players still playing at full speed, while others are letting off.  Those are the times when someone gets hurt.

Let it go, treat it as a live ball foul, and if we have to rekick, then rekick (although I would rather a tack on).  It beats killing a play where not everyone is going at the same speed.

One of the primary basics of the game, is everything stops on a whistle.  Just as Ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking it, whether a whistle is heard, or not, is no excuse for playing beyond it.  Everyone is RESPONSIBLE to listen for whistles, and the potential consequences for not hearing them.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2014, 08:03:32 PM »
One of the primary basics of the game, is everything stops on a whistle.  Just as Ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking it, whether a whistle is heard, or not, is no excuse for playing beyond it.  Everyone is RESPONSIBLE to listen for whistles, and the potential consequences for not hearing them.
IF everyone hears a whistle, fine.  When some players (and officials) are 60 yards away from it, it might not be heard.  Trust me, the players are not focused on the officials, players are focused on their assignment and the opponent.

To say you as a player actively involved in a play are responsible for the potential consequences of not hearing it is simply ignorant.  It's similar to allowing the offense to snap the ball when the defense isn't on the field.  When plays start or stop under "non-normal" conditions, the potential for injury rises exponentially.  From an injury standpoint, we would be far better served to let this play go and rekick if necessary than to try to shut one down after the ball has already been kicked.

Offline prab

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2014, 08:55:13 AM »
Atlanta Blue is right!

ALUpstateNY is wrong!

Next situation please!

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2014, 07:10:57 AM »
 tiphat: After finishing my crab cake donut and shrimp flavored coffee, I quickly dug out my spiffy 2014 Football Rules Committee Meeting notebook. Proposals #41 & 42 ( committee talk) add new rules 6-1-3 & 6-1-3b (the ones we're arguing about) and talk about "being on each side of the KICKER..." and "be within 5 yards except the KICKER". yEs:
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 07:19:45 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #40 on: June 23, 2014, 07:23:14 AM »
tiphat: After finishing my crab cake donut and shrimp flavored coffee, I quickly dug out my spiffy 2014 Football Rules Committee Meeting notebook. Proposals #41 & 42 ( committee talk) add new rules 6-1-3 & 6-1-3b (the ones we're arguing about) and talk about "being on each side of the KICKER..." and "be within 5 yards except the KICKER". yEs:
"being within 5 yards of the KICKER"?  So if my "kicker" (who is actually a potential kicker as he has not yet kicked the ball) starts 9 yards deep, by the proposal, the rest of the players can be 14 yards deep?  I REALLY don't think that's what they meant!

And even saying 4 on each side of the "kicker" meant that the committee got a little loose with their definitions.

Ralph, I'm sorry, but I don't think this one was vetted as well as it should have been.

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #41 on: June 23, 2014, 07:29:46 AM »
AB - Ralph's notes say within 5 yards EXCEPT the kicker.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #42 on: June 23, 2014, 07:35:31 AM »
One of the primary basics of the game, is everything stops on a whistle.  Just as Ignorance of a law is no excuse for breaking it, whether a whistle is heard, or not, is no excuse for playing beyond it.  Everyone is RESPONSIBLE to listen for whistles, and the potential consequences for not hearing them.

I've worked games where the noise level was so high that I could barely hear my wing's whistle from 15 yds away.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #43 on: June 23, 2014, 09:31:43 AM »
AB - Ralph's notes say within 5 yards EXCEPT the kicker.

Got it, not enough caffeine.  But I still ask, who is the "kicker"?

Offline bkdow

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #44 on: June 23, 2014, 01:28:46 PM »
We tested this rule (four on each side) in Minnesota for a few years and in all that time, I think we had one penalty called on our crew.  It is called by the R because the rest of us do not have an angle on the four a side.  We shut it down at the time the ball was kicked because before that, you don't have a kicker declared.  It shut down quickly and without incident.  Even in the most undisciplined of games, teams implemented the rule quite well.
"Don't let perfection get in the way of really good." John Lucivansky

Offline VALJ

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #45 on: June 23, 2014, 04:23:07 PM »
Got it, not enough caffeine.  But I still ask, who is the "kicker"?

Now that, I agree with you, since the kicker is not defined until somebody actually.. well.. kicks the ball... 

Offline Johnponz

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2014, 10:50:48 AM »
Kind of silly it is not a live ball foul.  It should be simultaneous with the kick which would make it a live ball enforcement.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #47 on: June 24, 2014, 11:38:30 AM »
This was the third year a similar rule was proposed and ran as an experiment in Iowa, Minnesota and last year in Kentucky. The proposals failed in the first two years even with positive reports. IMHO, the "muddling factor" was that it was then proposed as a live ball foul with the potential for a re-kick. This year it was proposed as a dead ball foul and passed easily. "Who's the kicker?", one might ask?? ??? "The kid that looks like he's going to kick 'er", I might answer yEs:. "Ayuh, 'spect some other kid might kick 'er pray:; :!#", one might ponder. " We got a spiffy new case #6.1.3B that tells ya' what to do ^flag", I might respond. I might then gnaw on a dried jellyfish on seaweed salad, wash 'er down with scallop flavored soda and watch the highlights of last night's Red Sox game eAt&. Life is good, ayah>

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #48 on: June 24, 2014, 01:19:38 PM »
Got it, not enough caffeine.  But I still ask, who is the "kicker"?

Exactly.  In our area, for on-side kicks, we are seeing some teams put two players behind the ball.  Both run up, and one kicks it.  The theory is that the defense can't overload to one side, since they don't know which way it will be kicked.

Now, if the kicking team overloads, they may have only three on one side of one of those two players, but it turns out to be four if the other player actually kicks the ball.      hEaDbAnG

Offline stevegarbs

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Re: 2014-15 Points of Emphasis- Officials Manual
« Reply #49 on: June 24, 2014, 02:21:14 PM »
Here is the wording of 6.1.3:

ART. 3 . . . After the ball is marked ready for play, and until the ball is kicked, K must meet the following formation requirements:
a. No player, other than the kicker and the holder for a place kick, may be beyond his free-kick line; and
b. At least four K players must be on each side of the kicker.
c. No K players, with the exception of the kicker, may be more than five yards behind the kicking teamís free-kick line. A player satisfies this rule when no foot is on or beyond the line 5 yards behind Kís free kick. If one player is more than 5 yards behind the restraining line and any other player kicks the ball, it is a foul.