Player Numbers

[Rulesman]

Don't forget to pack the red flag and stirrups.

And he still hasn't answered the question! 

[HLinNC]

Where did I leave my 4 sided down marker on a stick?

[Rulesman]

...or the pylons that were attached to a spring that was stuck in the ground?

A few years from now we'll also be talking about the era when football was actually played on REAL, green grass.

[AlUpstateNY]

...or the pylons that were attached to a spring that was stuck in the ground? A few years from now we'll also be talking about the era when football was actually played on REAL, green grass.

Drifting back to the original question (An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul?  I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?), and holding all the "Comedy Central" efforts aside mre the moment, can anyone provide an actually meaningful reason to bring identifying the fouling player, publicly, to the High School level?

One would think those advocating the change would be willing, and eventually able, to defend, and or explain, the necessity or benefit of the change they advocate.  Good ideas often help to explain themselves, as evidenced by the practice of announcing fouls, and their enforcement penalties, which doing so, provided relevant, pertinent information to interested observers of the game. 

Help me out here, can anyone offer a relevant advantage, benefit, necessity or ANY positive attribute derived from identifying, publicly, the student athlete who has fouled, and possibly hurt his team's chances for success? 

[Magician]

Drifting back to the original question (An honest question, what is the benefit of "announcing" (in addition to advising the respective coach) of the identity of the player commiting a foul?  I understand the remedial benefit potential of pointing out a violation to a coach in a position to reinfource correct behavior, but what (if anything, is the benefit of publicly identifying a student athlete's mistake to spectators in general?), and holding all the "Comedy Central" efforts aside mre the moment, can anyone provide an actually meaningful reason to bring identifying the fouling player, publicly, to the High School level?

One would think those advocating the change would be willing, and eventually able, to defend, and or explain, the necessity or benefit of the change they advocate.  Good ideas often help to explain themselves, as evidenced by the practice of announcing fouls, and their enforcement penalties, which doing so, provided relevant, pertinent information to interested observers of the game. 

Help me out here, can anyone offer a relevant advantage, benefit, necessity or ANY positive attribute derived from identifying, publicly, the student athlete who has fouled, and possibly hurt his team's chances for success? 

It is obvious you are not buying what everyone else is selling and I don't think anyone can say anything that will convince you this is a worthwhile thing to do.  Some changes are just natural evolutions in the game and that's how I see this one.  I never understood why we didn't announce them.

[Atlanta Blue]

I gave you 5 reasons, and your only stated objection is we might embarrass a player.  Embarrassing a player is NOT a reason to avoid it, and the NFHS has realized the ridiculousness of that argument given other sports as well as the classroom.

To continue to use that as your only source of objection just reinforces your unwillingness to concede to evolution in the sport.  Yes, we jokingly made fun of that with references to past officiating equipment and uniforms, but your continued obstinance is now just evidence that we should all just move on without you.

[Rulesman]

What they said...

[AlUpstateNY]

I gave you 5 reasons, and your only stated objection is we might embarrass a player.  Embarrassing a player is NOT a reason to avoid it, and the NFHS has realized the ridiculousness of that argument given other sports as well as the classroom.

To continue to use that as your only source of objection just reinforces your unwillingness to concede to evolution in the sport.  Yes, we jokingly made fun of that with references to past officiating equipment and uniforms, but your continued obstinance is now just evidence that we should all just move on without you.

Actually, all you you gave me was 5 silly, inconsequential reasons to announce offending player's.  I'm still waiting for something valid, something that provides some (any) benefit to anybody, other than Head Coaches, who should already be advised consistently who THEIR fouling player was, which often provides opportunity for additional detail as to what the player actually did, so they are already told who the fouling player was, albeit somewhat more discreetly.

Are you suggesting needlessly embarrassing a teenage student athlete is a GOOD THING?  Does it serve some purpose, accomplish anything positive or add the slightest bit of value to ANY aspect of the game, or the event, but identify someone who made a costly mistake. 

I'm all for reasonable "evolution of the game" if such evolution has a positive effect, improves something or even presents some previously unknown, or unseen value to the game.  However when NONE of that is added, NOTHING worthwhile is even suggested and only silly reasons are provided to justify adding something, well maybe adding it (because they do  it on TV) isn't really such a necessary, or justifyable idea. 

Actually, I have nothing to do with "you moving on".  That's entirely up to you. If announcing penalties is important to your advancement, that's a decision you'll have to make for yourself.

If you think singling out and identifying every player who makes a mistake, publicly to the crowd at a HS Football game, so the event can seem more like other levels, or other sports, that's on you.  Personally, I just don't see anything of value, constructive or necessary in doing so. I only asked a question, "What is a benefit?", if you can demonstrate or explain an actual, real,  positive benefit, I'll be happy to re-consider, until then I think it's an unnecessary and unpredictable expansion, that offers no positive result. 

[VALJ]

I'm still waiting for something valid, something that provides some (any) benefit to anybody, other than Head Coaches, who should already be advised consistently who THEIR fouling player was, which often provides opportunity for additional detail as to what the player actually did, so they are already told who the fouling player was, albeit somewhat more discreetly.

In Ohio, their manual says "numbers WILL be announced"  that started in 2012

Just moved to Arizona so I am not sure about here, but I would guess we don't announce numbers.

According to our new mechanics manual, Tennessee is now requiring referees to announce the number of the offending player when using a microphone.  We have moved away from Federation mechanics starting this year and have created our own set of mechanics as we transition to having more and more games using 7 man crews.

There's a direct benefit to referees in Ohio and Tennessee, since their mechanics require them to announce the number.

 

[bossman72]

Actually, all you you gave me was 5 silly, inconsequential reasons to announce offending player's.

.

Don't dismiss his points as "silly" just to attempt to win an argument.  Those are all great points he made.  You've lost this one.

[Johnponz]

Another reason is it might help the fans better understand what is going on.  It is so easy to "tape" a game.  All that you need is an i-pad or even an i-phone.  It might be helpful for the fan to go back to the tape and see the exact foul the official was calling.

I know this reason is probably silly too.

[goodgrr]

If protecting the embarrassment/humiliation of the player is the primary concern, are we also to protect them from the harsh embarrassment of being a loser? Perhaps we should stop keeping score also ;-)

On a more serious note, knowing the player number can help the crowd to understand where a penalty took place, especially if there is more than one flag on the play.

[AlUpstateNY]

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Don't dismiss his points as "silly" just to attempt to win an argument.  Those are all great points he made.  You've lost this one.

It's not about winning or losing, bossman.  I simply do not see ANY relevant value, or improvement to the game, from ANY of the 5 "reasons" suggested, and I see potentially harmful results from publicly highlighting individual player mistakes that may have a detrimental impact on their team's success.  Apparently you do, and it would be helpful if you could point out, or explain some actual values or benefits I'm missing, so I can recognize and appreciate these "great points" to the extent you do.

Identifying the fouling players TO THE HEAD COACH, provides ample opportunity to teach corrective behavior, and/or apply consequences WHERE AND HOW AN ADULT INSTRUCTOR DECIDES APPROPRIATE, rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn.  H.S. football is at the zenith of over 100 years of expanding popularity, and has somehow survived NOT "officially" pointing to individual player mistakes.

Sorry johnponz, but do really think identifying the fouling player (let's not forget, we're talking HS football) is actually going to, "help the fans better understand what is going on", presuming the signal, and if the practice of announcing the penalty, was received and understood?

With due respect to the writers of the Mechanics Manuals in Ohio and/or Tennessee, VALJ, did either manual include their reasoning, or point to some rational benefit, intended by their decision?  Forgive me for going back to my original question, but I'm simply looking for a valid reason for adopting this procedure, and I've yet to see one.  It's reasonable to expect, those advocating for this change should be able to explain why it's something worth doing, rather than simply mimicking higher levels, TV Coverage or other sports.

Just maybe, if finding a really solid reason for making this change is so difficult to identify, it's NOT a necessary change.

[VALJ]

With due respect to the writers of the Mechanics Manuals in Ohio and/or Tennessee, VALJ, did either manual include their reasoning, or point to some rational benefit, intended by their decision?

I don't know if they've determined a benefit to the public at large.  Whatever the logic is behind it - and I personally don't have a strong opinion behind it - quite frankly is someone else's responsibility.  The  direct benefit is to the officials involved - their bosses say "announce the number", so they do.  If Tennessee and Ohio tell their officials to do it, they should do it.  If Virginia decides to tell me to announce the numbers, I do.  I don't get a vote, any more than I got a vote when Virginia decided to change their shirts.

 

[ECILLJ]

rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn. 
[/quote]

Al, You may be over the top with your analysis of psychological damage potential.

[AlUpstateNY]

rather than subject a High School student athlete to PUBLIC embarrassment and potential scorn. 


Al, You may be over the top with your analysis of psychological damage potential.

I don't have any, "analysis of psychological damage potential" but why light a match in a dry forest if you have a perfectly good flashlight that's working?

[HLinNC]

I think it's time to kill this one off.