Football Free kick formation

[Ump33]

I do not understand why so many are hung up on "At least four K players must be on each side of the kicker" and debate he is not a kicker until he kicks the ball.

To my knowledge, this was never an issue in the past with 2-14-3b and 6-1-3a. Each state something similar to "Following the ready-for-play for a free-kick down and until the ball is kicked all K players, other than the kicker and holder, must be behind their free kick line."

I would say it is impossible for the Kicker to be in front of the free kick line before he actually kicks the ball. I'm sure the rule is referring to the "plant foot" of the "player that is about to kick the ball." Technically the "plant foot" goes down before the ball is kicked so the player is not a Kicker when he is on or beyond his Free Kick Line.

We do not call encroachment because we know what the rule means. It is no different than the wording of 6-1-3c ... we know what the rule means.

[Curious]

So, on a free kick following a fair catch, all of these restrictions apply - right?


Also, if (on a wind day) K is using a holder, does he count as one of the 4 players on his side of the kicker?

Good night all!

[mantle]

Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?

[Tom.OH]

Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?

I will use the press box sideline for my reference. So the 5th, 6th and 7th players from that sideline are all eligible kickers.

[mantle]

So then we are contradicting the rule book which, on page 35, defines a kicker as"any player who legally punts, dropkicks or place kicks. A player becomes a kicker when his knee, lower leg or foot makes contact with the ball"

[Rulesman]

You are several weeks late with that observation.

[mantle]

I guess better late than never.

[Ralph Damren]

Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?

The player the official hands the football to is assumed to be the kicker. The white hat is responsible for the enforcement of the "4 on each side " rule. If it is an onside kick situation, he should focus on the weak side - if the kick formation is unbalanced - for if one of the 4 becomes a surprise kicker, you have a violation. We had our first meeting with the coaches last night and several expressed this would hurt their onside kick game ; after thinking for a few minutes they realized it would effect their opponent's onside kick game,too.

[HLinNC]

after thinking for a few minutes they realized it would effect their opponent's onside kick game,too.

Rarely do they have that much foresight.  You might want to call Ripley's.

 

[Curious]

Sorry but I'm still hung up on this topic. One last question. Kickoff - ball is on the tee in the middle of the 40 yard line. Technically six players on one side of ball and five players on the other. All players are in the zone. No one back on or behind the 35. All 11 players in the zone. No kicker established. After the ready for play signal, who is eligible to kick the ball?

Let's not over-think this situation.  When all 11 K players are positioned inside the 5 yd "belt", there are only three positions which may produce a kicker.  The four outside positions (on each side) may never kick the ball.  That's 8 of the 11 player positions - leaving only the three remaining positions eligible to kick.

There is/are no shift scenarios that I can think of that could change this.     

[CalhounLJ]

Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four.  What am I missing?

[Atlanta Blue]

Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four.  What am I missing?

Since there has to be 4 on each side FROM THE RFP THROUGH THE KICK (unless you are in Oregon or Missouri), then your outside man kicking would be an encroachment foul assuming he started running after the RFP.

[Curious]

Aren't all 11 players eligible to kick the ball? A player may have to change positions within the formation to make it legal, but can't he do that without a foul? Example- the player on the outside end of the formation simply runs behind the others, turns and kicks the ball. If there were 5 on that side, there would still be four.  What am I missing?

Notice, I wrote the four OUTSIDE POSITIONS - not PLAYERS. Your example - 5 on that side - would be legal (sorry AB) because 4 players would always remain POSITIONED to that side of the eventual kicker.  All I'm saying is that any of the other four on that side, and any of the outside four positions on the other side would NEVER be eligible to kick the ball.

[CalhounLJ]

Notice, I wrote the four OUTSIDE POSITIONS - not PLAYERS. Your example - 5 on that side - would be legal (sorry AB) because 4 players would always remain POSITIONED to that side of the eventual kicker.  All I'm saying is that any of the other four on that side, and any of the outside four positions on the other side would NEVER be eligible to kick the ball.

Gotcha. I understand that. Thanks.
BTW, hello to everyone. I used to be on the old FED forum before they shut it down, and was pleasantly surprised to see some of the old screen names here when I logged on. Hope to continue my education here; there is a lot of football savvy and rules knowledge here.

[eprov]

I work both NFHS and NCAA officiated games it seams pretty straight forward to me. Not sure what's all the confusion.  It's at least four on one side of the ball besides the kicker. Only the player who kicks the ball may be behind K35. I'm sure during the first few weeks of the season there will be a learning curve for schools, but by the end of the season its a done issue, minus some dumb coaches who will learn by the penalties he receives. As the WH, during my on field pre-game meeting with the HC's I will ask if they understand this rule change.

[Atlanta Blue]

I work both NFHS and NCAA officiated games it seams pretty straight forward to me. Not sure what's all the confusion.  It's at least four on one side of the ball besides the kicker.

If that's the way you call it, you're making up new rules in FED.  The problem is that the rule says you must have 4 on each side of the KICKER, not the BALL.  And in FED, it's for anytime after the RFP, not at the kick.

Yes, the NCAA rule is pretty straight forward.  The FED rule isn't worded the same.

[VALJ]

It was suggested during our weekly meeting last night that whoever is giving the ball to the K enlists the help of the player to whom we hand the ball.  Something to the effect of "OK, tell everybody to keep their feet inside the 35, and make sure that there's at least four on either side of you when you kick the ball.  Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."

The one making the suggestion figures that it gives us another layer of preventive officiating.  YMMV.

[bama_stripes]

"Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."

We're requiring the goal line to wear a hat now?      

[Atlanta Blue]

It was suggested during our weekly meeting last night that whoever is giving the ball to the K enlists the help of the player to whom we hand the ball.  Something to the effect of "OK, tell everybody to keep their feet inside the 35, and make sure that there's at least four on either side of you when you kick the ball.  Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."

This is now the interp in Oregon as well, but isn't it in conflict with the rule which says you have to have 4 on each side from the RFP to the kick?  I agree, it's simpler and makes more sense, but aren't you applying a fix that isn't really there?

Is it an act of civil disobedience (and common sense) that FED should have written, but didn't?

[Johnponz]

I am just going to post once because I believe this posting has about run its course.  This is a time where intent of the rule and common sense really does matter.  If the team is at the sideline or kind of muddling around after the RFP, we should not immediately throw a flag and call a foul.  This is unnecessarily inserting ourselves into the game and being over officious.  If it is obvious that K is going to kick the ball with less than 4 on one side of him or the other.  We kill the play and enforce the penalty. 

Let's not look for trouble and nit pick a rule.  Intent is important here, and the intent of the rule is clearly to prevent a possible injury by overloading one side of the kicker especially on onside kick situations.  What advantage is K gaining by muddling around right after the RFP?

[Rulesman]

What advantage is K gaining by muddling around right after the RFP?

Ask a special teams coach and see what kind of answer you get.

[Johnponz]

I know I said I would post only once...However, I would like to hear from them.

I am always open to listening, and *gasp* may even change my mind.  That is hopefully why we have boards like this.

[VALJ]

"Wait for the whistle from the man on the goal line in the white hat before you kick the ball."

We're requiring the goal line to wear a hat now?      

OK, so I dangled my participle.  So what?   

[bbeagle]

I know this rule is meant for safety, but they could have just as easily said, 'At the kick, there must be at least 4 players on each side of the kicker'. There is really no reason why you need this number to be correct at the ready for play, for safety reasons.

I'll give you an unsafe play that is totally legal:
Ball spotted at right hash for an attempted onside kick at the K40.
4 K-players line up on the left numbers, all other K players are between the right hash and the sideline.
The K team has timing planned where the 4 K players get a running start, run to the right and almost reach the kicker when he kicks the ball toward the right sideline, they then pass the kicker (after the ball has been kicked), and now all 10 players are to the right of the kicker in attempting to get the onside kick (with 4 of those kickers having a 20 yard running start)

There is no way that this is 'safe' the way the new rules, I think, are meant to provide more safety.... but I expect many kicking teams to try something like this now.

[Atlanta Blue]

but I expect many kicking teams to try something like this now.

We tried it at camp last week.  It's possible, but REAL hard to time up right, and it gives the kicker a short field to try to bounce a kick into.

Not saying we won't work on it, but it's tough.