Author Topic: Basic Spot Question  (Read 10323 times)

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molinejudge

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Basic Spot Question
« on: August 01, 2014, 09:37:16 PM »

      I have been studying penalty enforcement the past few days and tonight it has been "spots." This study brought to mind a game several years ago early in my career where we had this happen; 3rd & 10 for "A" A16 takes the snap and drops back 6 to 7 yards to pass, B55 bull rushes and is on top of A16 before he gets set to throw. B55 grabs A16's face mask as he is pulling him down. We penalized "B" the 15 yards from the end of the run, which is where the face mask occurred, this did not give "A" a 1st down, and I can remember the "A" coach upset because he thought the face mask foul should be penalized from the previous spot, which would have given him a 1st down. We marked it off from the spot where the run by "A" ended, the "basic spot" and as I read about spots, I believe this was correct.

      Comments?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2014, 09:55:39 PM »
Under FED rules, you were correct.  I don't like it, but that's the rule.  It was a run play, and the basic spot is the end of the run.

Had the QB dropped the ball when B grabbed his face mask, it becomes a loose ball play, and the basic spot becomes the previous spot.  This is why the rule is bad, it "rewards" the QB for dropping the ball.  Where's the sense in that?

But you got it right.

molinejudge

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 07:45:00 AM »
 Thanks for your reply.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 12:12:45 PM »
 "But coach, you do get 3rd down over".

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 02:02:04 PM »
Under FED rules, you were correct.  I don't like it, but that's the rule.  It was a run play, and the basic spot is the end of the run. But you got it right.

There are 3 major rule codes, each with a slightly different focus designed to better support their level of play.  NCAA and NFL have decided personal fouls are automatic First downs, so either enforcement spot would be a 1st down.  That's only one of a number of significant differences  (DIFFERENT, not necessarily better or woese).

As pointed out above, the result for "A" would now be 3rd and 1, rather than the 3rd and 10 they started with.  This is the penalty deemed reasonable at the HS level, not as severe as at the NCAA or NFL levels, but whether better, fairer or not, depends a lot on which team is making that assessment. 

No rule at any level is guaranteed to address EVERY situation EVERY time.  NFHS seems more concerned about simplifying and standardizing enforcements, other levels feel a need for more exceptions and specific remedies.  There's no absolute "Right or Wrong", it's what each code considers BEST for THEIR PARTICULAR situation.

There's no short cut for those of us working multiple levels, you have to learn different codes, but that's your choice.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 04:37:23 PM »
There are 3 major rule codes, each with a slightly different focus designed to better support their level of play.  NCAA and NFL have decided personal fouls are automatic First downs, so either enforcement spot would be a 1st down.  That's only one of a number of significant differences  (DIFFERENT, not necessarily better or woese).

As pointed out above, the result for "A" would now be 3rd and 1, rather than the 3rd and 10 they started with.  This is the penalty deemed reasonable at the HS level, not as severe as at the NCAA or NFL levels, but whether better, fairer or not, depends a lot on which team is making that assessment. 

No rule at any level is guaranteed to address EVERY situation EVERY time.  NFHS seems more concerned about simplifying and standardizing enforcements, other levels feel a need for more exceptions and specific remedies.  There's no absolute "Right or Wrong", it's what each code considers BEST for THEIR PARTICULAR situation.

There's no short cut for those of us working multiple levels, you have to learn different codes, but that's your choice.
My opposition to the rule is two fold:

1.  Fouls by the defense often CAUSE planned pass plays to turn into run plays, which changes the enforcement spot.  Example:  QB has a primary receiver that beats the DB and is going to be wide open.  DB knows he is beat, so he reaches out and pulls the receiver down.  The knowledgeable official properly throws the flag for Illegal Use of Hands.  Because HS players aren't as advanced as their NCAA or NFL brethren, the ability to find a secondary or tertiary receiver often doesn't exist, plus the blocking on the line probably isn't as good.  As a result, QB scrambles, gets sacked 10 yards deep.  Because it is a running play, the defensive foul, which caused the sack, gets enforced from the end of the run, meaning there is no no real penalty other than the down being played over.

2.  The situation above.  Defense grabs the QB by the face mask and pulls him down, preventing the QB from throwing a pass.  Run play, enforce from the end of the run.  But if the QB drops the ball during the pull, even intentionally, the foul is now enforced from the previous spot on a loose ball play.

Both of these outcomes defy logic, the first letting the defense "profit" from a foul, the second allowing the offense to "profit" from a fumble.  Those sort of outcomes shouldn't be allowed to exist and show why the FED rule needs changing.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 08:36:11 AM »
"No rule at any level is guaranteed to address EVERY situation EVERY time". 

If someone wants to look hard enough, they can find some circumstance(s) related to any rule that creates a potential exception to the intended balance of that rule.  There are, however, valid reasons why consistency in the application of general rules far outweigh conjured potential exceptions or examples of potential imbalances.

NFHS rules are designed to service interscholastic student athletes, and below, and their respective skill and maturity levels.  As players progress to higher levels and advanced maturity, higher rule codes adjust to reflect expanded capabilities.  One size NEVER, EVER fits all.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 09:51:23 AM »
Two rule changes have been batted around dealing with this over the last few years : (1) All personal fouls by B should be an automatic first down. Reasoning for failure :(a)This would aid the offense and in today's game the offense doesn't need any help. (b) Auto first downs now are only for roughing a vulnerable player - kicker,holder ,passer & snapper. Adding to all DPF's would dilute the severity of those. (c) Some feel only if LOD was tacked on to OPF also. I do not support a change here.

(2) Foul by B when run ends behind LOS given previous spot enforcement. Reasoning for failure :  (a) See above "a". (b) If QB gets off an incomplete pass, ball goes back to previous spot; if QB gets sacked, it doesn't. (c) Some feel this would be an exception to our ABO principal. I do support a change here.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2014, 11:02:23 AM by Ralph Damren »

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2014, 10:35:45 AM »
Auto first downs now are only for roughing a defenseless player kicker, holder, passer or snapper.

Let's not confuse folks, Ralph!  (see Defenseless Player thread)

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Basic Spot Question
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2014, 10:56:39 AM »
Let's not confuse folks, Ralph!  (see Defenseless Player thread)
Thanks, 'Bama, sometimes I even confuse myself ???. I have substituted the word "vulnerable" in my post/rant. tiphat: