Author Topic: Force ignored by new rule?  (Read 5031 times)

Offline bbeagle

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Force ignored by new rule?
« on: August 07, 2014, 02:18:48 PM »
New rule this year 8-5-1b states "The accidental touching of a loose ball by a player who was blocked into the ball is ignored and does not constitute a new force."

Is the accidental touching ignored as a TOUCH or just ignored for the purpose of FORCE (which rule 8-5 is labeled as 'Force, Safety, Touchback')

Play: 4th down. A1 kicks the ball from his own end zone, ball blocked, lands at the 5 yard line, and is relatively motionless. Player A2 blocks player B2 into the ball. The ball goes back into the end zone where it's recovered by A2.

Ruling? Is it a safety (force AND touch by B ignored) or a touchback, new series for A because of the touch by B?

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2014, 02:22:09 PM »
New rule this year 8-5-1b states "The accidental touching of a loose ball by a player who was blocked into the ball is ignored and does not constitute a new force."

Is the accidental touching ignored as a TOUCH or just ignored for the purpose of FORCE (which rule 8-5 is labeled as 'Force, Safety, Touchback')

Play: 4th down. A1 kicks the ball from his own end zone, ball blocked, lands at the 5 yard line, and is relatively motionless. Player A2 blocks player B2 into the ball. The ball goes back into the end zone where it's recovered by A2.

Ruling? Is it a safety (force AND touch by B ignored) or a touchback, new series for A because of the touch by B?

See 6-2-4.  The touching was always ignored.  Now the force is ignored as well.  So in your play, safety.

Offline prab

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2014, 02:24:42 PM »
The touching by B2 is ignored.  Therefore, the kick is the force which put the ball into A's end zone.  Safety.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2014, 02:37:46 PM »
See 6-2-4.  The touching was always ignored.  Now the force is ignored as well.  So in your play, safety.

Thanks for the quick response! I know I've been ignoring the blocked-into touching for a while, didn't know where that rule was! Thanks!

Thinking about it, under the 2013 rules then, the play I described would be a touchback? B/R forced it into the end zone, therefore it couldn't be a safety?

« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 03:28:05 PM by bbeagle »

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2014, 03:46:37 PM »
Thanks for the quick response! I know I've been ignoring the blocked-into touching for a while, didn't know where that rule was! Thanks!

Thinking about it, under the 2013 rules then, the play I described would be a touchback? B/R forced it into the end zone, therefore it couldn't be a safety?
That's a good question.  I don't think what we had this year was a rule CHANGE as much as it was a rule CLARIFICATION.  I don't think it was ever meant that forced touching could impart a new force, but it wasn't clear.  Now it is.

Offline Kevin Durst

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2014, 09:52:30 AM »
I think since the touching in this case has always been ignored, in the past there technically was no touching that could have put a new force on the ball.  I agree this rule just clarifies it.

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2014, 10:26:32 AM »
I think since the touching in this case has always been ignored, in the past there technically was no touching that could have put a new force on the ball.  I agree this rule just clarifies it.

This rule DOESN'T clarify the case where you can legally bat a ball into an opponent though. The touching is ignored in that case, but the FORCE is not.

Play: 4th and 10 at 50. K1 punts ball to R1 at his 5 yard line. R1 muffs the punt, ball lands on 3 and is rolling towards endzone. K2 bats the grounded kick towards his own goal line, hits R1 at the 5. Ball rebounds off R1 into the endzone. Whistle blown as ball enters endzone, as this is a kick entering an endzone, play over.

The ball's status is still a kick when the bat occurs, so a bat of a grounded kick is legal, there is no first-touching as R touched the ball before the bat. The force which caused the ball to go into the endzone is R, so is this a safety?

(I don't see anything where a grounded kick can only be batted if untouched by R)


Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2014, 11:08:38 AM »
The ball's status is still a kick when the bat occurs, so a bat of a grounded kick is legal, there is no first-touching as R touched the ball before the bat. The force which caused the ball to go into the endzone is R, so is this a safety?
What's the status of the ball when it goes into the end zone?  Answer that, and the rest becomes clear.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2014, 11:26:04 AM »
Had this drilled into me many times - "A kick is a kick is a kick until somebody gains possession."  Remembering that saying can save a lot of headaches on kicks that are bouncing around on the 5 yard line.

2-13-4 says "Force is not a factor on kicks going into R's end zone, since these kicks are always a touchback regardless of who supplied the force."
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 11:29:48 AM by FLAHL »

Offline bbeagle

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2014, 11:54:56 AM »
What's the status of the ball when it goes into the end zone?  Answer that, and the rest becomes clear.

It's still a kick, which causes the ball to become dead when it goes into the endzone.

A new force CAN be added to a grounded kick. So the status of the ball (a kick) doesn't clarify who forced the ball into the endzone.

FLAHL posted that 2-13-4 contains language to state that a kick into R's endzone is ALWAYS a touchback. So, this overrules what I was thinking - about force. Thanks, FLAHL! Answers are always SOMEWHERE in there, it's amazing the smart people on this board.

But ARE these kicks ALWAYS a touchback? Sometimes these kicks end up being field goals or tries! :)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2014, 11:58:20 AM by bbeagle »

Offline Rulesman

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2014, 12:26:09 PM »
But ARE these kicks ALWAYS a touchback? Sometimes these kicks end up being field goals or tries! :)
See 4-2-2d.
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2014, 12:40:51 PM »
To paraphrase AB - a field goal is just like a punt, except it scores 3 points if it goes through the uprights.  So a missed FG that breaks the plane of the goal line is always a touchback.

As for a try by kick, the ball is dead as soon as it becomes evident that the kick will not score.

Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Force ignored by new rule?
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2014, 12:41:40 PM »
It's still a kick, which causes the ball to become dead when it goes into the endzone.

A new force CAN be added to a grounded kick. So the status of the ball (a kick) doesn't clarify who forced the ball into the endzone.
A kick is a kick until it's not a kick.  A kick ends when it is possessed by a player, or becomes dead.

Yes, a new force can be added to a grounded kick, but it doesn't matter, it's still a kick.   And a kick in R's EZ is a touchback, regardless of who put it there.

(Obviously, there is an exception for a successful scoring attempt.)