Author Topic: Mad scramble  (Read 2747 times)

Offline bbeagle

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Mad scramble
« on: August 12, 2014, 03:39:00 PM »
Play: A1 fumbles ball at their own 10 yard line, and ball is rolling slightly at 10 yard line. Mad scramble for the ball. Players A1, A2, B1, B2 all at different times in trying to secure the fumble, 'muff' it in different directions. Eventually, the ball goes into A's end zone.

Player A3 in the middle of the end zone, all alone in clear view of all fans, again muffs the ball (accidentally) out of the back of the end zone while trying to secure the ball.

At first thought, it seems like the correct call would be safety, as A3 forced the ball out of the end zone. But on second thought, would it not be a safety or a touchback depending on who supplied the force to get the ball INTO the end zone (A1, A2 or B1, B2)? It would seem like a hard call to make because the 'force' could have happened on the 4th to last touch or so 3 seconds earlier.



Offline Atlanta Blue

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2014, 03:44:58 PM »
That's why you get the big bucks!

Who put the ball INTO the end zone?  Unless you have clear evidence it was someone else, I would go with whoever put it on the ground.

Offline bossman72

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2014, 03:55:57 PM »
Play: A1 fumbles ball at their own 10 yard line, and ball is rolling slightly at 10 yard line. Mad scramble for the ball. Players A1, A2, B1, B2 all at different times in trying to secure the fumble, 'muff' it in different directions. Eventually, the ball goes into A's end zone.

Player A3 in the middle of the end zone, all alone in clear view of all fans, again muffs the ball (accidentally) out of the back of the end zone while trying to secure the ball.

At first thought, it seems like the correct call would be safety, as A3 forced the ball out of the end zone. But on second thought, would it not be a safety or a touchback depending on who supplied the force to get the ball INTO the end zone (A1, A2 or B1, B2)? It would seem like a hard call to make because the 'force' could have happened on the 4th to last touch or so 3 seconds earlier.




You are correct sir.  However, if you have any doubt on this play, make it a safety.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2014, 04:09:43 PM »
We talk about this during our pre game every week.  If a play starts inside the 10 yard line (either one), and the ball ends up in the end zone, we HAVE to know who put it there, and whether or not it hit the ground.  Luckily we haven't had the play that you described yet, but some day it'll happen, and I hope we're prepared.

Does anybody know why new force can't be added unless the ball is grounded?  From his own 5, A1 pitches back to A2.  A2 drops the ball to the ground, B10 muffs it into the end zone, prone B20 recovers in the EZ.  This is a touchback.  Similar situation: A1 pitches back to A2.  Lightning quick B10 muffs the ball while it's in the air into the EZ.  Prone B20 recovers.  This is a safety.  Can anybody shed any light on why these two plays have such different results?

Offline ref4e

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 08:29:30 PM »
Quote
From his own 5, A1 pitches back to A2.  A2 drops the ball to the ground, B10 muffs it into the end zone, prone B20 recovers in the EZ.  This is a touchback.  Similar situation: A1 pitches back to A2.  Lightning quick B10 muffs the ball while it's in the air into the EZ.  Prone B20 recovers.  This is a safety.  Can anybody shed any light on why these two plays have such different results?


I respectfully disagree.   You have B in possession of the ball in A's end zone.   That's a TD.

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2014, 09:20:50 PM »
Check your fundamentals.

Possession in the opponent's end zone is always a touchdown.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2014, 08:32:43 AM »
Does anybody know why new force can't be added unless the ball is grounded?  From his own 5, A1 pitches back to A2.  A2 drops the ball to the ground, B10 muffs it into the end zone, prone B20 recovers in the EZ.  This is a touchback.  Similar situation: A1 pitches back to A2.  Lightning quick B10 muffs the ball while it's in the air into the EZ.  Prone B20 recovers.  This is a safety.  Can anybody shed any light on why these two plays have such different results?

I'm embarrassed about that one.  Here's what I should have said:
Inside their own 5 yard line, A1 pitches back to A2.  A2 drops the ball to the ground, B10 muffs it into the end zone, prone A20 recovers in the EZ. This is a touchback.  Similar situation: A1 pitches back to A2.  Lightning quick B10 muffs the ball while it's in the air into the EZ.  Prone A20 recovers.  This is a safety. 

Offline FBUmp

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2014, 09:08:04 AM »
Does anybody know why new force can't be added unless the ball is grounded?

If the ball is not grounded, then it's in flight. That means the player who put it in flight is the one who caused it to enter the end zone, whether anyone else touched it or not.

On the original play, I would be hard pressed not to call the play based on the last player who touched the ball before it went into the end zone. That's who I would go with as far as providing force when multiple players touched it.

Offline Jim D.

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2014, 12:56:01 PM »
If I'm completely in doubt (which I shouldn't be), I'm going to assume A put it in the end zone.  Team A screwed up by fumbling in the first place -it's their error that caused the ball to be loose.  I'm not going to bail them out with a 1st and 10 unless I'm really sure B provided a new force.


Offline HLinNC

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2014, 01:57:08 PM »
Quote
Team A screwed up by fumbling in the first place -it's their error that caused the ball to be loose.  I'm not going to bail them out with a 1st and 10 unless I'm really sure B provided a new force.

This :thumbup

Offline loveofficiating

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 09:39:50 AM »
I am a rookie here, but for the first case scenario, if you give A a touchback, do they now get the ball at the 20 with a first down?  Again, as several mentioned, why would A get rewarded for an extra 15 yards (ball was previously at 5 yard line) and a new set of downs for their fumble?   I would either give a safety or give previous spot and next down?  They shouldn't get a doover for the down, should they? Why not a safety?   I would think that both scenarios warrant a safety for lack of possession by B.  A muff is not a possession, right?

Offline HLinNC

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 10:15:14 AM »
1) a touchback always puts it on the 20
2) whatever leads you to the thought of previous spot and a first down, remove it.
3) the only "do over" per se is for an inadvertent whistle on a loose ball play and possible in a running play, replay the down.  Would not apply in this case unless one of the covering officials brain farts.
4) a muff is not player possession, it does remain in team possession until/unless possessed by the opponent.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: Mad scramble
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 12:16:45 PM »
Loveofficiating - read everything in the rule book and case book about force.  Ask questions until you understand it completely.  If you do that, you'll be far ahead of most, if not all, first year officials.  (And you won't screw it up like I did in my post above  :-[)