Fumble out of bounds - penalty during fumble

[bbeagle]

Play: A 1st and 10 at A20. A2 runs ball to A25, is hit and fumbles. Ball fumbles forward and goes out of bounds at the 50. During the attempted fumble recovery, B2 delivers a blow to A2's head with an illegal block at the 50.

Am I correct that we enforce from the end of the run (A25), therefore the penalty would be 15 yards from the 25 (A 1st and 10 at the A40)? This penalty would be declined, so A keeps the ball at the 50? (Of course, we might eject the player).

I don't see any 'basic spots' being where the ball went out of bounds. The fumble is a 'loose ball' play, so we go back to the end of the run for any penalties that occur during this loose ball that is NOT recovered in the field of play?

[Bwest]

Your enforcement is correct, but the fumble isn't a loose ball play. It's a loose ball during a running play.

[HLinNC]

Which is why you carry that bean bag.

[bbeagle]

Your enforcement is correct, but the fumble isn't a loose ball play. It's a loose ball during a running play.

Thanks. It just seems so unjust. If there is a long forward fumble, and it's going to go out of bounds, the defense, in effect, gets free shots?

Why is this 'loose ball' considered part of the running play? I'm confused by the terminology. It's not ENFORCED as a 'running play' (otherwise the out-of-bounds spot would be the end of the run). It's ENFORCED more like a 'loose ball play' - ignore where the ball is during the fumble.

[ECILLJ]

Play: A 1st and 10 at A20. A2 runs ball to A25, is hit and fumbles. Ball fumbles forward and goes out of bounds at the 50.   

How many 25 yard forward fumbles have you witnessed? A fumble that travel 25 yards untouched is going to be under suspicion of being an illegal forward pass.

[Suudy]

We had a similar last year.  On a sweep, the runner fumbles the ball.  It's rolling forward and toward the sideline and a B player batted the ball to try and keep it in-bounds.  There was a flag for an illegal bat.  The enforcement was from the spot of the fumble.

[Rulesman]

bbeagle, look at 10-3-3b. The out of bounds spot is not the end of the run. "The end of the run is where the runner loses possession if his run is followed by a loose ball."

[bbeagle]

How many 25 yard forward fumbles have you witnessed? A fumble that travel 25 yards untouched is going to be under suspicion of being an illegal forward pass.

I'm guessing a 25 yard fumble is probably touched by a few players on each team, who muff it in trying to recover it before it goes out of bounds, or caused by a defender punching the ball out of the ball carrier's hands. Either way, the penalty enforcement seems wrong if this is labeled part of a 'running play'.

[bama_stripes]

It's not ENFORCED as a 'running play' (otherwise the out-of-bounds spot would be the end of the run). It's ENFORCED more like a 'loose ball play' - ignore where the ball is during the fumble.

It's enforced just like any other running play where the runner doesn't lose possession -- at the end of the run.  It would be really unfair to penalize this as a loose ball play, which has previous spot enforcement.

[AlUpstateNY]

Rules are established, and designed, to standardize and govern the general behavior of play.  Play must adapt to the established rules, rather than try and continually adapt the standards to adapt to play.

The "end of the run" is the either the actual spot the runner's progress ended, or the actual spot where the runner lost possession of the ball.  The runner has honestly earned whatever yardage actually gained, provided there has been no prior foul, to assist him, or his advance. (NFHS 2-41-9)

A fumble remains in the runner's "team" possession until it goes OOB, but with the addition of a foul by the team in possession, after the actual run physically ends (the spot where possession was lost) the yardage EARNED by that team reverts to the spot the runner lost possession (fumble).

Dealing with the loose ball (after the fumble) as a loose ball play for enforcement purposes would deprive the runner of whatever yardage he had honestly earned (without the assistance of any fouls) beyond the previous spot, which the Rules consider unfair or excessive. 

[Atlanta Blue]

The fumble is a 'loose ball' play,

There's the part that has you confused.  It's not a "loose ball play", and if it was, the basic spot would be the previous spot.

10-3-1:
A loose-ball play is action during:

A free kick or scrimmage kick, other than those defined in 2-33-1a. (not applicable here)
A legal forward pass. (not applicable here)
A backward pass (including the snap), illegal kick or fumble made by A from in or behind the neutral zone and prior to a change of team possession.
Note: The run(s) which precede such legal or illegal kick, legal forward pass, backward pass or fumble is (are) considered part of the action during a loose-ball play.

Once the ball is possessed by A beyond the LOS, you can't have a "loose ball play".

[Ralph Damren]

The important (and confusing ) thing to understand is that "loose ball play" really should state : Loose ball BEHIND the LOS. Everything else is a running play with the possibility of multiple running plays during the down (from a team with "fumbleitis") .The end of a given run is the spot of the fumble, echoing the importance of beanbaging it and mentally recording WHEN the foul occurred as it will determine the basic spot. Concerns of the OP not giving A an equitable basic spot should consider that if the fumble went OOB behind the basic spot A would benefit and that A didn't really gain those 25 yards, a bouncing football did.

[bbeagle]

It's enforced just like any other running play where the runner doesn't lose possession -- at the end of the run.  It would be really unfair to penalize this as a loose ball play, which has previous spot enforcement.

I guess by 'ENFORCED as a loose-ball play', I mean to ignore the loose aspect of the ball - NOT that the enforcement is previous spot.

The ENFORCEMENT of a loose ball after a run past the line of scrimmage is NOT the same enforcement as if the ball were a possessed ball.

I guess it could be more easily summed up as:

IF THE BALL IS LOOSE, the basic spot is the end of the run, or the previous spot - whichever is further down field.


If the ball goes out-of-bounds on a fumble or backwards pass, that is the basic spot. If the ball goes out-of-bounds on a legal forward pass, the basic spot is the previous spot.

Why all this unnecessary terminology about loose ball plays and run plays when this is all that is really meant?

[AlUpstateNY]

Sometimes simply accepting what exists, and is generally understood, requires a lot less effort than developing cosmetic changes intended to prohibit the possibility of potential misunderstandings.

[Atlanta Blue]

If the ball goes out-of-bounds on a fumble or backwards pass, that is the basic spot.

Not true.  It is true if the fumble or backward pass took place after the runner crossed the neutral zone.  But if the fumble or backward pass took place behind the neutral zone, the basic spot is the previous spot, because that is a "loose ball play".

All "loose ball plays" have a ball that is "loose" (pass, kick, fumble).  Not all "loose" balls are "loose ball plays".  Did FED make this confusing?  Maybe.  But be careful when you discuss these plays, or your wording could make your answer incorrect.

[bbeagle]

Sometimes simply accepting what exists, and is generally understood, requires a lot less effort than developing cosmetic changes intended to prohibit the possibility of potential misunderstandings.

I understand what you're saying, but more than half of our experienced officials in our organization still do not understand all the complexities of running play vs loose ball play.

Other simplifications like 'clean/dirty hands', 'electricity with sidelines' have been developed to simplify other rules as well.

[Ralph Damren]

I understand what you're saying, but more than half of our experienced officials in our organization still do not understand all the complexities of running play vs loose ball play.

Other simplifications like 'clean/dirty hands', 'electricity with sidelines' have been developed to simplify other rules as well.

Try this : LBOBL = Loose Ball Only Behind Line ; while I try this : clam broth martini and lobster claw pretzels

[JABReferee]

electricity with sidelines

I have been officiating football for 25 years and have never heard of that one.  What the heck is that?

[bbeagle]

I have been officiating football for 25 years and have never heard of that one.  What the heck is that?

It's an analogy in determining whether a loose ball is dead (out-of-bounds).

Act as if the sidelines are full of electricity. when something touches the sidelines, it becomes electrified. When something touches that something IT is electrified too.

Example 1: ball is loose, fumble inbounds, many players go for the ball, but it is touched by a player who has 1 foot on the sidelines. Boom - by electrical properties, the ball is 'dead' (out-of-bounds) too. The ball can't stay alive anymore, even though it is inbounds.

Example 2: Pass in the air - 2 people try to go for it, 1 person with a foot out of bounds touches the ball, 1 person completely inbounds touches the ball. Ball is dead, can't be a catch.

[Bwest]

What about a player standing out of bounds who swipes at and hits the ball in a runner's possession?

[prab]

What about a player standing out of bounds who swipes at and hits the ball in a runner's possession?

A ball in player possession is out of bounds when the runner or the ball touches anything, OTHER THAN ANOTHER PLAYER or game official that is on or outside a sideline or end line>

[CalhounLJ]

Uh oh. Confusion reigns. Pesky rules . . .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bwest]

A ball in player possession is out of bounds when the runner or the ball touches anything, OTHER THAN ANOTHER PLAYER or game official that is on or outside a sideline or end line>

I know, was just trying to point out a potential pitfall in the "electricity" theory.

[prab]

I know, was just trying to point out a potential pitfall in the "electricity" theory.

Mea Culpa!

[Magician]

I know, was just trying to point out a potential pitfall in the "electricity" theory.

The theory very clearly stated loose ball. A ball in player possession is not a loose ball.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk