Author Topic: "But I have options!!!!"  (Read 13112 times)

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2014, 09:46:20 AM »
You make it sound like "going by the rules" is optional.

Apparently it is, because ignoring a captain's stupid decision is not in the rules, but as some have posted here, they think it's ok. My point was, ( and I think you know) that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't criticize an official for asking the coach, and at the same time think it's ok for the official to make the decision for the kid.

Lastly, while we are talking about enforcing the rules, let me ask you a question - do you call that backside hold away from the play? . . . .because that's in the rules too.  :!#
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 10:04:05 AM by CalhounLJ »

Offline CalhounLJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2014, 09:49:44 AM »
Goes to show, just a little common sense and practical application goes a long, LONG way in avoiding anyone making an unnecessary mistake or looking foolish.

MS solved the problem by having the coin toss with the coaches during pre game discussion. We only have a simulated toss with the captains before the game.
OAN, I have never had a coach upset with me because I asked him what he wanted to do about a penalty.

Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2014, 10:21:32 AM »
Often, all it takes to avoid unnecessary confrontations is a thorough knowledge of what the objective is, the ability to recognize the great expanse of opportunities between "never" and "always" and the willingness and common sense to apply the flexibility to find what satisfies a consensus that works without sacrificing the objective.

It is truly RARE that only one specific size fits all.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2014, 02:14:10 PM »
Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
 Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."

Offline bkdow

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2014, 02:28:46 PM »
Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
 Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."
When I was younger and in a different sport, I did things without regards to common sense because I was smarter than the coach.  Let's just say it never turned out pleasant for the smart guy!  I was technically correct but learned early in my soccer career that preventive officiating can extend to more items than just those that occur when the ball is in play.  I didn't always learn the easy way, either.  Keep someone from making a bad decision if you can.  We try to talk players out of holds, being stupid after the play, players line up in the neutral zone, etc.  This is no different.
"Don't let perfection get in the way of really good." John Lucivansky

Offline bossman72

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2014, 08:09:39 AM »
Just this past Friday this occurred in my game :
 Me : "Captain, you've won the toss and....". The captain interrupted and said : "We'll KICK" ::) :o. I responded ,with a smile : "I'm the elder, I'll speak first ; ;) you can DEFER your choice until the 2nd half and chose to get the ball then..." Captain : "...Sounds good, we'll do that..." At halftime I advised his coach of the near blunder . Morale of this story : If you see a trainwreck coming, try to stop the train...or in Mainer terms : "Stop your lobster boat before it snags a shoal."

If a player says "kick", I heard "defer"  ;D

Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2014, 10:33:16 AM »
Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain?  If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice? 

I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half.  The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out.  However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.

I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.

Offline FLAHL

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2014, 10:58:40 AM »
Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain?  If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice? 

I had one, not in a HS game, but at the highest level of youth ball.  I asked the captain on the sideline "What do you want to do if you win the toss?" and he said that he wanted to kick.  I called the coach over and explained that he'd end up kicking to start both halves.  He said that was fine because his defense was much better than his offense.  Of course they won the toss, and the captain elected to kick.  They kicked and A's first offensive play was a 70 yard TD run.  The coach was right though.  His defense was much better than his offense.  I think we had a running clock before halftime (legal in youth ball in our area).
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 11:01:30 AM by FLAHL »
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Offline red viking

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2014, 12:09:11 PM »
We always ask the coach before the game - what do you want to do if you win the coin toss?

Offline Etref

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2014, 12:11:44 PM »
Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain?  If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice? 

I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half.  The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out.  However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.

I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.


Yes!!!!

Coaches before game flip, winner says defer, loser says kick and winner say we defend north end!
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #35 on: September 04, 2014, 01:55:37 PM »

Yes!!!!

Coaches before game flip, winner says defer, loser says kick and winner say we defend north end!

Did the loser of the toss give any explanation for why he knowingly and willingly chose to kick after the winner chose to defer?

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #36 on: September 04, 2014, 09:17:40 PM »
Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain?  If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice? 

I did have ONE team elect to kick off to start the second half.  The coach said that he had a good kicker and thought that his defense could pin the receivers deep in their own territory and hold them forcing a 3 and out.  However, that was the one and only time I ever saw a team choose what most of us (according to the comments on this thread) under most circumstances would consider to be a "poor" choice.

I have NEVER had a team elect to defend a goal after winning the coin toss.

Yes, once.  Coach had a good kicker wanted to pin the opposing team down near their own end zone, which they did.  Ray Rice ran for an 85 yard TD two plays later.

Offline Matt

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2014, 02:06:04 AM »
yes, coach chose to defend a goal to start second half. "I'll take the wind in the third and trust my defense in the fourth." Visiting coach about wet his pants when he found out he could receive the ball.

Offline SCHSref

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2014, 07:25:45 AM »
Has anyone EVER had a situation where the team that won the coin toss elected to kick off or defend a goal, where it was intentional and no mistake was made by the captain?  If so, did the team provide any explanation for their choice? 


I have a better one...

It's OT and the coin toss.  The winning captain wishes to defer.  Really?  You sure about that?   LOL
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Offline Rulesman

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2014, 07:50:34 AM »
I have a better one...

It's OT and the coin toss.  The winning captain wishes to defer.  Really?  You sure about that?   LOL
You bring up a good point. The options should be discussed prior to the toss.
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Offline Curious

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2014, 12:00:16 PM »
Defer? :!# :!#

Is that even an option?

"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner:  "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."

Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"?  Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner? 

Who in their right mind would take such an option?  Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series.  What official would ever offer that option?  pi1eOn

Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin.  If still tied.....reverse..."

Offline SouthGARef

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2014, 12:03:20 PM »
We ask the captains "what are you going to do if you win the toss?" before we take them onto the field. If they say Receive or Defer, no problem. If they say Kick (very rare, but it does happen), we clarify with the coach. That allows us to avoid awkward situations on the field.

I take that a step further. We ask the coaches what he wants to do in the pregame meeting, then when the captains arrive at midfield the R and U ask their respective captains what they want to do if they win the toss. If anything is different, we don't walk out until we get approval from the coach. Once I had a coach change his mind after he talked to us. Didn't let us know, but when the team captain told us he wanted to receive (the coach had earlier said defer), we waited a second and made sure we got approval from the coach first.

Then at the actual toss, whoever wins the toss I ask a leading question. "White you have one the toss. Your coach has notified us that you would like to defer your option to the second half. Is that correct?"

Never had any issues.

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2014, 01:37:43 PM »
Defer? :!# :!#

Is that even an option?

"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner:  "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."

Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"?  Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner? 

Who in their right mind would take such an option?  Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series.  What official would ever offer that option?  pi1eOn

Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin.  If still tied.....reverse..."
I know it's not likely but it is possible that a team could pick the end of the field. Assume that AB trained the kicker of the team that winds the toss and he knows the kid can kick the 27 yard field go against the wind. The other team's kicker has been having trouble making the PAT all night especially when he is at that end of the field. Team wins the toss, designates the windy end at the place to start and will likely get the ball first (most of the time I see teams take defense first).

If the score a touchdown and make the extra point great. If not they get the field goal. Next team gets their chance. If he score a touchdown, then they have to get the PAT kick to tie or go for two. Since they were having trouble with the kicks already it is possible to win this way.

I know this is an unlikely scenario but never underestimate the level of sneakiness of a football coach. They will use every advantage they can possible think of to win a game. Plus the rules tell us we have to give these three options.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2014, 01:12:12 PM »
Defer? :!# :!#

Is that even an option?

"Interesting" is the wording of the choices for the toss winner:  "offense or defense first, or designating the end of the field..."

Is there another "first" - as suggested by the "or"?  Is "choice of end" actually intended to be a third option for the toss winner? 

Who in their right mind would take such an option?  Wind, water, or whatever couldn't justify giving up the offense/defense option in subsequent series.  What official would ever offer that option?  pi1eOn

Suggestion (Ralph): "The winner of the toss shall be first given the choice of offense or defense; then, the loser will have the option of at which end this series will begin.  If still tied.....reverse..."
Even if interrupted by a captain, I always begin explaining the options by saying " Y O U   C A N  D E F E R   Y O U R   C H O I C E   T O   T H E   S E C O N D   H A L F...." yEs: I'll then pause and the captain will usually reply : " Ayuh, that's what the coach wants"  or  " We want da' ball now"...IMHO, one of our top priorities is to run the game smoothly. Watching a trainwreck at the coin toss is not a good start pi1eOn.

Regarding choices of OT....during our 3 minute recess ,our umpire an I will be explaining the upcoming options to the coaches. I've had coaches ask : " Which is better ??? ??? ?" ; to his I'd respond : " Going on defense first gives you the same position as a home team batting last in an extra inning game." The coach will usually inform the captains in front of me and the umpire.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 01:37:21 PM by Ralph Damren »

Offline Etref

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2014, 04:21:05 PM »
Did the loser of the toss give any explanation for why he knowingly and willingly chose to kick after the winner chose to defer?

I was really too stunned to ask for a reason. Just scratched my head and walked away.
" I don't make the rules coach!"

Offline prab

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2014, 07:08:10 PM »
I was really too stunned to ask for a reason. Just scratched my head and walked away.

I believe that you made a wise choice!   hEaDbAnG

Offline NorCalMike

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2014, 12:56:17 AM »
My WH always asks the coach what he wants to do if his team wins the toss. Friday night home team coach says kick. We must have both look dumbfounded because he quickly corrected himself.

Offline VALJ

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2014, 07:44:39 AM »
My WH always asks the coach what he wants to do if his team wins the toss.

I did that in my pregame meeting with both coaches on Friday.  Then the home team wins the toss, and says "we want to kick".  I said, "OK, so you want to defer receiving until the second half, right?"  He agreed right away.


Offline AlUpstateNY

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2014, 08:59:32 AM »
It seems, in summary, there is a wide variety of ways a helpful Referee can assist an excited, and somewhat emotional, student athlete from making a wrong decision, as well it should be.

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "But I have options!!!!"
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2014, 10:27:14 AM »
It seems, in summary, there is a wide variety of ways a helpful Referee can assist an excited, and somewhat emotional, student athlete from making a wrong decision, as well it should be.
We'll have enough challenging / argumentative calls to made in the impending game. The coin toss should not be one. :)