Clock Scenario

[NCVAReferee]

K 4/11 from R-12.  Field goal attempt.  0:04 left in the 2nd quarter.

At the snap, R runs into kicker and subsequently blocks the kick.  R recovers the kick inbounds on R-14 and is downed.

K accepts the penalty to make it K 4/6 from R-7.  Clock?

Different clock situation if the penalty is roughing as opposed to running into the kicker?

 

[NCVAReferee]

0:01 remains on the clock after penalty enforcement.

[Kevin Durst]

Not sure from reading this what the penalty was for.  It is not a foul to hit the kicker before he kicks the ball, which is the way this reads, and it is very rare the you would see a running into the kicker foul after R blocks the kick, although it is possible.

[NCVAReferee]

I am basically trying to get a read on whether you start the clock on ready or snap after a legal scrimmage kick on 4th down when the penalty is accepted and you replay the down.  R was in possession at the end of the down, downed in bounds.  Any foul that is applicable can be used here.  I used running into the kicker as an example. 

I think the clock starts on the ready, but have had discussion about this.

If the foul is roughing the snapper for example (where we get an auto first down) I think we go on the snap because "any team (k in this situation) is awarded a new series following a legal kick".

What are your thoughts?

[Atlanta Blue]

I don't think the example play reads very well.  Let's fix it to see if we can get to your point.

4th and 11 at the R42.  :07 left on the clock. :01 left on the clock.

K's FG attempt is woefully short, but R runs into the kicker.  R fell on the ball on the R2.  K accepts the foul. Now it's 4th and 6 at the R36.

Did the play end with a major clock stopper? No.  If no major clock stopper, the clock will start on the snap. READY (sorry for the typo!)

Now, the foul is ROUGHING the kicker.  K is awarded a new series.  Now we have a major clock stopper (either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick).  Clock on the snap.

[NCVAReferee]

Atlanta Blue:

Sounds like we are in agreement. 

I have heard other interpretations on the running into penalty that the clock stopper was because R was in possession and WOULD HAVE BEEN AWARDED a new series following a legal kick if it was not for the penalty.  The argument made here is the new series is what stopped the clock, not the officials for penalty enforcement.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Curious]

I don't think the example play reads very well.  Let's fix it to see if we can get to your point.

4th and 11 at the R42.  :07 left on the clock. :01 left on the clock.

K's FG attempt is woefully short, but R runs into the kicker.  R fell on the ball on the R2.  K accepts the foul. Now it's 4th and 6 at the R36.

Did the play end with a major clock stopper? No.  If no major clock stopper, the clock will start on the snap.

Now, the foul is ROUGHING the kicker.  K is awarded a new series.  Now we have a major clock stopper (either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick).  Clock on the snap.

Snap? Should be RFP.....

[Atlanta Blue]

Atlanta Blue:

Sounds like we are in agreement. 

I have heard other interpretations on the running into penalty that the clock stopper was because R was in possession and WOULD HAVE BEEN AWARDED a new series following a legal kick if it was not for the penalty.  The argument made here is the new series is what stopped the clock, not the officials for penalty enforcement.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

WOULD HAVE isn't the same as IS.  The clock stopped because R was tackled inbounds.

[BoBo]

After any legal scrimmage kick the next play will start on the ready

[NorCalMike]

After any legal scrimmage kick the next play will start on the ready

Rule 3-4-3d The clock will start on the snap if either team is awarded a new series after a legal kick.

[BoBo]

lack of sleep i meant snap, its time for sleep

[NorCalMike]

lack of sleep i meant snap, its time for sleep

I know the feeling. 4 games in the last 24 hours.

[NCVAReferee]

BoBo:

The clock will start on the snap after any legal scrimmage kick?  Rule 3-4-3d says this is the case only when any team is awarded a new series following a legal scrimmage kick.  If we are replaying the down due to penalty, and the player is downed inbounds, shouldn't we be going on the ready?

[jg-me]

 He is invoking NCAA rules, not necessarily NF.

[CalhounLJ]

Just to be clear- if k punts, r muffs beyond the nz and k recovers, we start the clock in the snap?  Because we've had THAT discussion.


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[Curious]

Just to be clear- if k punts, r muffs beyond the nz and k recovers, we start the clock in the snap?  Because we've had THAT discussion.


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YEP!

[Atlanta Blue]

Just to be clear- if k punts, r muffs beyond the nz and k recovers, we start the clock in the snap?  Because we've had THAT discussion.

Not sure why it would be a discussion:

3-4-3c:
The clock shall start with the snap...
Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

Now, if K recovers a blocked FG that didn't cross the LOS and was made on 3rd down, NOW we have a different issue.

[Ralph Damren]

In 1996 when the timing rule was modified, part of the rationale was starting on the snap after mass substitutions. COP was the obvious one and K regaining possession and new series after a kick was another. Note that double barrelled COP on a regular scrimmage down is not as A's offense and B's defense is already in the game.

[bossman72]

Atlanta Blue:

Sounds like we are in agreement. 

I have heard other interpretations on the running into penalty that the clock stopper was because R was in possession and WOULD HAVE BEEN AWARDED a new series following a legal kick if it was not for the penalty.  The argument made here is the new series is what stopped the clock, not the officials for penalty enforcement.  Does anyone else have thoughts on this?

Tell them to look at 3-5-7c.  A change of possession is an official's time out.

This is a common misconception - the "apparent change of possession."  I actually submitted a rule change to help clarify this situation:

3-4-3 The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

 b. B or R is awarded a new series and will next snap the ball.


Unfortunately, it didn't make it.  Ralph, can I get a little help next year???  haha!

[CalhounLJ]

Not sure why it would be a discussion:

3-4-3c:
The clock shall start with the snap...
Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

Now, if K recovers a blocked FG that didn't cross the LOS and was made on 3rd down, NOW we have a different issue.

See Ralph's response under your post.
That's why we had the discussion.

[bossman72]

If the kick had gone wide left through the endzone, we would go on the snap because of the touchback, correct?

[Ralph Damren]

If the kick had gone wide left through the endzone, we would go on the snap because of the touchback, correct?

Ayuh, you have two supporting rules covering this : 3-4-3c (new series following kick) and 3-4-3d (ball becomes dead behind goal line). A couple of timing situations that are easy to slip up on : 3rd & 8 @ B's 10 + A1 goes for TD / goes to B's 1 while A2 holds @ B's 10 = starts on snap / starts on RFP. ... K 4&10 @ K's 10 + IF on punt/running into kicker + fair catch @ 50 = start on snap on both (3-4-3j) because of fair catch...a rule needed before 1965 if a return kick was a free kick for a field goal . There are probably a few more, but we Mainers celebrate post-Labor Day by changing our meal of choice from lobster roll to lobster chowder.

[FLAHL]

Are you also ready to break out the long sleeves up there? 

[Ralph Damren]

Are you also ready to break out the long sleeves up there? 

Long sleeves are not considered gauche in Maine until after Columbus Day.