Author Topic: Out or safe?  (Read 5622 times)

Offline walkintall

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Out or safe?
« on: November 13, 2014, 11:40:37 AM »
I saw this happen in a 13-14 yo rec league game, so the umps weren't "real." But, I'd like to know the rule for my own edification. Here's the set up:

1 out, although it is not germane to play.
Runner on first
Batter at plate, 0-0 count.

Runner on first heads for second on the 0-0 pitch. Batter hits a slow chopper up the middle over the pitcher. Runner gets such a good jump on the pitch, that he has completed his slide into second and has almost completed the process of standing up when the batted ball hits him. Runner was called out and that may very well be the right call. I'd just like to know if it is a judgment call as to whether the runner interfered with the chance to field the ball or if it is interference by rule.


Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 04:08:14 PM »
I saw this happen in a 13-14 yo rec league game, so the umps weren't "real." But, I'd like to know the rule for my own edification. Here's the set up:

1 out, although it is not germane to play.
Runner on first
Batter at plate, 0-0 count.

Runner on first heads for second on the 0-0 pitch. Batter hits a slow chopper up the middle over the pitcher. Runner gets such a good jump on the pitch, that he has completed his slide into second and has almost completed the process of standing up when the batted ball hits him. Runner was called out and that may very well be the right call. I'd just like to know if it is a judgment call as to whether the runner interfered with the chance to field the ball or if it is interference by rule.
That's more like it!! A baseball question haha.

If a batted ball (has not been deflected by a fielder) hits a runner, the runner is out if the batted ball has yet to pass an infielder (not including the pitcher) OR it has passed an infielder and another fielder has an opportunity to make a play.

Nearly all instances of this, the runner will be out.  Only case I have seen it happen without an out is when the infield is playing 'in on the grass' (so the batted ball has passed an infielder by the time it hits the runner)

Sidenote: the base is not a safe haven for a runner in regards to a batted ball unless infield fly has been declared.

This rule and sidenote are similar if not exactly the same in all codes.

Might I also encourage umpire-empire.com for your pressing baseball officiating needs or inquiries :)
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Offline walkintall

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2014, 02:28:16 PM »
Thanks.

How about this.

runners on 1st and 2nd
batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line. 3rd baseman attempts to field it going to his right, but has to run it down in shallow left field territory. Everyone advances one base. Everyone safe.

So, 3rd baseman throws the ball back to the pitcher from very shallow left field. The runner on third is confused and has convinced himself that it was a foul ball. He starts back to second. Base coach starts yelling to get on base. Pitcher sees him off the bag and throws it back to 3rd. Here's the question.

Is the runner forced out or must he be tagged?

Offline fitz13

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2014, 11:04:05 PM »
must be tagged.  he has already acquired 3rd base and there is no longer a force.

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2014, 11:47:00 PM »
Thanks.

How about this.

runners on 1st and 2nd
batter hits the ball down the 3rd base line. 3rd baseman attempts to field it going to his right, but has to run it down in shallow left field territory. Everyone advances one base. Everyone safe.

So, 3rd baseman throws the ball back to the pitcher from very shallow left field. The runner on third is confused and has convinced himself that it was a foul ball. He starts back to second. Base coach starts yelling to get on base. Pitcher sees him off the bag and throws it back to 3rd. Here's the question.

Is the runner forced out or must he be tagged?
False, when the runner begins running back towards 2B, the force is reinstated.
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Offline fitz13

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Re: Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2014, 01:37:31 PM »
False, when the runner begins running back towards 2B, the force is reinstated.

who said he was running. the kids thinks it is a foul. he is going to be walking or at best a light jog which is far from a retreat(under duress). you have to take the whole play into account and use some judgement. the ball is already at the pitchers mound not coming in from the outfield.

ART. 3 . . . A force play is a play in which a runner (or two or three runners)
loses his right to the base he occupies and is forced to advance because the
batter becomes a batter-runner. For a given runner, a force play ends as soon as
he touches the next base or a following runner is put out at a previous base.
When a runner advances beyond a base to which he is forced without touching
it, the force play remains. Also, a force situation is reinstated when a runner
retreats past the base to which he was forced to advance.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 02:22:17 PM by fitz13 »

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2014, 06:06:52 PM »
Where does retreating have to be under duress?  The force is reinstated based on the end of the rule you cited yourself.
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Offline fitz13

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2014, 07:54:17 PM »
Where does retreating have to be under duress?  The force is reinstated based on the end of the rule you cited yourself.
retreat
noun
1.
the forced or strategic withdrawal of an army or an armed force before an enemy, or the withdrawing of a naval force from action.
2.
the act of withdrawing, as into safety or privacy; retirement; seclusion.

there was no reason for the runner to believe he was forced back to tag up. the ball was never a fly ball. the ball was at the pitcher mound when he started back towards second.

the runner never "retreated" he was off the bag. this is not a force play


Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2014, 08:46:43 PM »
"Starts back to second" is not just 'being off the bag.'

The runner retreated to second base, which by rule, reinstates the force.  It's not the defense's fault the runner and his coach are both morons.
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Offline fitz13

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2014, 12:27:34 PM »
"Starts back to second" is not just 'being off the bag.'

The runner retreated to second base, which by rule, reinstates the force.  It's not the defense's fault the runner and his coach are both morons.

"starts back to second" is NOT a retreat……….  TAG play

i guess you call a muff a fumble also. SMH

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2014, 02:06:22 PM »
I will post the case on umpire-empire.com and gather some group intel.  You're more than welcome to join our forum group over there if you are so insightful on baseball rules knowledge :)

Just remember a foul tip is not the same as a foul ball :)
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 02:33:55 PM by ALStripes17 »
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Offline fitz13

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2014, 04:41:23 PM »
I will post the case on umpire-empire.com and gather some group intel.  You're more than welcome to join our forum group over there if you are so insightful on baseball rules knowledge :)

Just remember a foul tip is not the same as a foul ball :)

and that is my point. a muff and a fumble on the surface may appear the same to some but they are different. a foul tip and a FOUL can look the same to some but are different.

just because you start to back track does not mean it is a retreat. 

you have to understand the intent of the rule.

look at it this way. same situation but 2 out and bases loaded.

runner on third scores and is now in the dugout. pitcher has the ball and runner on third starts back towards second because he thought the ball was foul. pitcher makes throw and tags runner out who is several feet off the bag towards second. 

you going to take the run off the score board because you say it is a force?

FYI it is a FOUL not foul ball.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2014, 04:47:06 PM by fitz13 »

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2014, 04:52:18 PM »
7.08 (e) in OBR and 2-29-3 in FED govern this play.  Yes, the run would be taken off the board as the force is reinstated.

Enforce the rules that are written.  Don't make up your own stuff and call it the gospel.  And tell the runner not to be such a moron next time.

OBR defines 'Foul Ball'.  Before you get snappy, research more than one code. 
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Offline fitz13

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2014, 06:35:51 PM »
7.08 (e) in OBR and 2-29-3 in FED govern this play.  Yes, the run would be taken off the board as the force is reinstated.

Enforce the rules that are written.  Don't make up your own stuff and call it the gospel.  And tell the runner not to be such a moron next time.

OBR defines 'Foul Ball'.  Before you get snappy, research more than one code.

you just don't understand the definition of RETREAT.

so your that guy who yells FOUL BALL…… smh

Offline walkintall

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2014, 02:47:06 PM »
retreat
noun
1.
the forced or strategic withdrawal of an army or an armed force before an enemy, or the withdrawing of a naval force from action.
2.
the act of withdrawing, as into safety or privacy; retirement; seclusion.

there was no reason for the runner to believe he was forced back to tag up. the ball was never a fly ball. the ball was at the pitcher mound when he started back towards second.

the runner never "retreated" he was off the bag. this is not a force play
Interesting.

The fan in me can see where going back to second is a retreat. I would also call going back to the dug out after being called out a retreat. Or, as you suggest, retreating back to the previous base because you are forced back when a fly ball is caught...that's a retreat to me as well.

Offline walkintall

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »
you just don't understand the definition of RETREAT.

so your that guy who yells FOUL BALL…… smh
Is there a baseball definition of retreat? The one you offered is not within the context of baseball.

Offline ALStripes17

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2014, 03:50:51 PM »
Remember that retouching a base or 'tagging up' is not a force play by any sense of the phrase.  Those are appeal plays.  Runners are never 'forced to retreat' by rule in baseball.
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Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: Out or safe?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2015, 08:45:10 AM »
OUAT (once upon a time), there was a NFHS case play that went something like : "runner at first, hit and run was on, pop into short CF, runner passes 2nd and realizes CF may catch. the ball, runner retouches 2nd and heads back toward 1st, ball drops in ,CF fires toward 2nd and throw beats runner there = force out" ???. I'm with reinstating the force.

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