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Author Topic: Intentional Grounding ?  (Read 13164 times)

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Offline TXMike

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Intentional Grounding ?
« on: December 06, 2014, 06:34:02 AM »
Interesting intentional grounding call

http://youtu.be/yk5lQhKpCHo
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Offline FLbackjudge

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2014, 07:17:49 AM »
For once, I agree with the broadcast team.  The QB was not under duress, so the intentional grounding probably should not have been called; looked like the intended receiver just ran the wrong route.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2014, 08:54:54 AM »
If a (deep) wing comes to me in this kind of situation and says "no receiver in the area", I would shrug it off just like FLBJ said - the QB is not under duress, I don't think there is a reason to flag this, no matter if the receiver ran the wrong route or the QB wanted to get rid of the ball.
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Offline TxSkyBolt

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Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2014, 10:03:27 AM »
IC


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Offline DallasLJ

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2014, 10:30:11 AM »
Horrible call. 

  Must read Passer under duress and throwing ball away to avoid loss first before you worry about whether an eligible Receiver was in the area.  There is no foul for simply throwing the ball away -- or in the wrong place.
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Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2014, 12:34:47 PM »
A coach told me the way his linemen miss blocks that his QB was "under duress" the second they snapped the ball.  Duress is probably one of the skills we need to discuss and try to define more for consistency in making this call.
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Bill LeMonnier

Offline dvasques

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2014, 12:48:54 PM »
maybe there is a need to define "under duress" but it really doesn't seem like the QB is trying to avoid or evade pressure in this play. And it's the first quarter so that was not to conserve time. I don't think I'd flag this one.
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Offline Osric Pureheart

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2014, 03:49:14 PM »
I'd like to hear someone's reasoning for why the rusher at the top of the screen isn't putting the QB under duress (assuming that we're defining "under duress" as "in danger of tackling the QB for a loss of yardage").  He seems to end up pretty close to the QB even though the tackle is trying to steer him round the corner, and if the QB holds the ball a few more seconds it seems to me like he's going to have to step up to avoid the pair of them...

That's not to say I'm arguing that this should definitely be grounding, just that as Bill says, it'd be helpful to have some components of "duress" that we can identify, and if consensus is that this shouldn't be grounding, this actually seems like a good play to use to work out what they are.  Does it matter that the rusher never actually forces the QB to move?  Does it matter that he never completely beats the guy trying to block him?

(Also, the first thing that came to mind when I saw the clip was Tom Brady in That Super Bowl, which looks like it'd be a good starting point for comparison.)
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2014, 01:54:19 AM »
I think my reasoning is that the QB makes his first (or second) read and throws to him in a normal motion relatively soon after the snap. In the Brady play Brady has lots of time and sees the pressure coming.
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Offline bossman72

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2014, 06:50:14 AM »
Quote from: Osric Pureheart on December 06, 2014, 03:49:14 PM
I'd like to hear someone's reasoning for why the rusher at the top of the screen isn't putting the QB under duress

The QB took a 3 step drop and threw it immediately upon getting his 3rd step down.  He didn't even see the DE, so it's not like the QB was "feeling" pressure.  He just tossed it up.  If he had stepped up in the pocket or something like that, then yes, I could see him being under duress.
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Offline psv

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2014, 09:07:57 AM »
I dont play the Referee position for big boy football, but, as an amateur R and a fan, I am hard pressed to see grounding here. 

However, anyone catch the Bowling Green coach complaining to the wing on his side?  He was complaining about holding... LOL... (1:07)  I mean, you get called for grounding, and your complaint is holding?  I love coaches :)

I busted out laughing at that...

Anyone else....

eh, maybe its just me :)
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Offline dvasques

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2014, 10:15:42 AM »
Quote from: bossman72 on December 07, 2014, 06:50:14 AM
The QB took a 3 step drop and threw it immediately upon getting his 3rd step down.  He didn't even see the DE, so it's not like the QB was "feeling" pressure.  He just tossed it up.  If he had stepped up in the pocket or something like that, then yes, I could see him being under duress.

For me, it just doesn't seem like the QB is throwing the ball to conserve yardage, as the rules state. Just seems like he's trying to complete a pass but the receiver missed the rout by a lot!


And deviating from the original play but just s scenario that came up in my mind.
Let's say a QB is under pressure and he throws right over the head of A88 who has, while running his rout, stepped out of bounds voluntarily? Should that be flagged for grounding?
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2014, 02:57:22 PM »
Quote from: dvasques on December 07, 2014, 10:15:42 AM
Let's say a QB is under pressure and he throws right over the head of A88 who has, while running his rout, stepped out of bounds voluntarily? Should that be flagged for grounding?

Technically, yes. I doubt if any supervisor would support the flag.
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Diablo

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2014, 04:52:13 PM »
Quote from: dvasques on December 07, 2014, 10:15:42 AM

Let's say a QB is under pressure and he throws right over the head of A88 who has, while running his rout, stepped out of bounds voluntarily? Should that be flagged for grounding?

Instead of becoming ineligible by stepping OB, at the snap A88 was a lineman covered up by a spilt end also on Team A's line of scrimmage? 
Legal or illegal grounding?
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Offline dvasques

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2014, 06:38:40 PM »
in theory, if the receiver is ineligible by formation, the QB should know he's ineligible
QB doesn't know the receiver stepped out of bounds. He's throwing to an eligible receiver to the best of his knowledge

now, I know that does not mean much according to what's written so that's why I'd like to know what you guys think
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Offline Magician

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2014, 11:07:11 PM »
Quote from: psv on December 07, 2014, 09:07:57 AM
I dont play the Referee position for big boy football, but, as an amateur R and a fan, I am hard pressed to see grounding here. 

However, anyone catch the Bowling Green coach complaining to the wing on his side?  He was complaining about holding... LOL... (1:07)  I mean, you get called for grounding, and your complaint is holding?  I love coaches :)

I busted out laughing at that...

Anyone else....

eh, maybe its just me :)
I think he was arguing the receiver was held which was why he wasn't near the pass. I'm guessing both the coach and QB thought the call was for the wideout to run a fly and he must have been held since he only went a few yards.
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Offline Kalle

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Re: Intentional Grounding ?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2014, 04:27:32 AM »
Quote from: Diablo on December 07, 2014, 04:52:13 PM
Instead of becoming ineligible by stepping OB, at the snap A88 was a lineman covered up by a spilt end also on Team A's line of scrimmage? 
Legal or illegal grounding?

I'd call the pass legal but have a flag on the ineligible downfield foul.
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