Would your crew have stayed off the whistle?

[ref4e]

Just finished watching the Cardinals vs. Panthers NFL playoff game, and although the game as a whole was fairly ugly, I was very impressed with one play in particular in which an IW would almost certainly happen at lower levels.   

Carolina QB Cam Newton dropped back to pass.   As he was cocking his arm backwards, an Arizona pass rusher knocked the ball out of his hand.    On the continuation of his throwing motion, Newton's hand hit the airborne fumble in flight and knocked it downfield 15-20 yards.    The ball bounced a couple times, and was picked up by an Arizona defender who returned it to about the 5.    On review, it was clear that Referee Ed Hochuli nailed the call.

Now, if the same thing happens on a Friday night game, how many downfield officials would have seen the ball go flying downfield and hit the ground, then immediately hit the whistle and signalled incomplete?

Bottom line....GREAT MECHANICS, TIMING, and CONCENTRATION BY THIS CREW to stay off the whistle.   That's why they work the big boys games!!

[HLinNC]

At that level, they tend not to use the whistle much anyway.  I agree, in HS that one is probably blown dead BUT also many R's would have ruled it incomplete too.

[Suudy]

Besides, how many of us HS guys have 7 (or 8) officials? We have 5 for most and 4 for many. Who on a 4/5 man crew would know other than the R it was a fumble? I can easily see a IW at the HS level just because there are fewer eyes on the passer.

[bossman72]

We actually pregame it.  I tell the wings that if the ball comes out of the QB's hand funny, don't blow it incomplete. I could be ruling fumble.  Just point to the ground so I know the ball hit the ground.

[FLAHL]

We actually pregame it.  I tell the wings that if the ball comes out of the QB's hand funny, don't blow it incomplete. I could be ruling fumble.  Just point to the ground so I know the ball hit the ground.

Thanks Bossman.  I'll be doing that next season as well.  That was the best call (non-call) of the weekend.  As the AZ player was returning the fumble, I was sitting there thinking "Where does he think he's going?"    to the crew for a job well done on that play.

[Bwest]

We actually pregame it.  I tell the wings that if the ball comes out of the QB's hand funny, don't blow it incomplete. I could be ruling fumble.  Just point to the ground so I know the ball hit the ground.

I really like this suggestion, thanks.

[ref4e]

We actually pregame it.  I tell the wings that if the ball comes out of the QB's hand funny, don't blow it incomplete. I could be ruling fumble.  Just point to the ground so I know the ball hit the ground.

Good point, Bossman.   I'll be adding that to my pregame outline for next season!

[J12]

        Don't NFL officials get graded on every play on a scale of 1 to 7 with 7 being a difficult call that was called exactly correct? That should be a 7!

[Ralph Damren]

Would the "Brady tuck rule have applied here .

If the eager tweeter does sound downfield, the white hat has a choice of lousy calls to choose from:
   
  (1) Rule the lousy call of incomplete pass  and move on to the next down....
       or,
  (2) Rule the lousy call of IW and allow A to repeat the down......

 What say, you guys....oh,yeah...Happy New Year

[Atlanta Blue]

If the eager tweeter does sound downfield, the white hat has a choice of lousy calls to choose from:
   
  (1) Rule the lousy call of incomplete pass  and move on to the next down....
       or,
  (2) Rule the lousy call of IW and allow A to repeat the down......

If the downfield official calls it incomplete, then it was incomplete.  While technically incorrect, it is the more "just" outcome.  No way should A get to replay the down.  In fact, in this play, why wasn't Cam called for Illegal Batting?  This was a loose ball (a fumble) that he struck with his hand and punched toward his opponent's goal line.

Would I call it Illegal Batting?  No, I think we're getting too technical, although it fits.  But I think the same thing would apply to an IW.  While (possibly) technically correct, no way I'm rewarding the offense with a do over.

[Rulesman]

Batting is an intentional act. This (obviously) was not intentional.

[Atlanta Blue]

Batting is an intentional act. This (obviously) was not intentional.

Under NFL rules, no intent is required.  An Illegal Kick must be "deliberate", but batting is the striking or punching of a loose ball toward an opponent's goal line.

[Rulesman]

Under NFL rules, no intent is required.  An Illegal Kick must be "deliberate", but batting is the striking or punching of a loose ball toward an opponent's goal line.

Unlike Pete Morelli, I stand corrected.

[Atlanta Blue]

Unlike Pete Morelli, I stand corrected.

To your point, despite the lack of the words "deliberate" or "intentionally", I'm not sure if any NFL official would ever call the unintentional striking of a loose ball as "Illegal Batting", nor do I think they should in a case like this.  I was simply putting it out there as a "technical" violation that should probably be left alone, just as it would be a technical violation to call it an IW if a downfield official called it incomplete.

[Ralph Damren]

AB ,you may remember this : Several years ago U-Maine was in a playoff game with Georiga Southern. The GS QB often used a "forward pitch" - a play that looked scary but actually had little risk. Late in a close game with GS's ball and slight lead ,3rd and whatever, their QB was hit from behind and fumbled forward with Maine recovering. The LJ, mesmerised by the forward pitches, blew his tweeter and signaled . 1,000 miles away ,at my favorite sports pub, the frenzied masses went wild as the white hat signaled and discussed it with the Maine coach.

4th down = GS punted = Maine fumbled on the return = GS recovered = GS won

It was said later that the white hat told the Maine coach : "If it wasn't an incomplete pass ,it would have to be an inadvertent whistle as that sounded before you recovered. They would then get the down over."

The Maine coach wasn't happy but understood.

The following Monday I was on the local sports station ,not defending the call, but defending the handling of a bad situation....the frenzied masses weren't happy...the frenzied masses didn't understand .....and then ice hockey season began

[FLAHL]

...the frenzied masses didn't understand

They never do, do they?

[NorCalMike]

Ralph,
Hope you are staying warm. Just saw the news. Below zero in the whole Pine Tree State.

For all you East of the Sierra Nevadas, it was 68 in Sacramento today. If I didn't have to work I would have had on shorts and a tank top.

BTW, I know we would have called this incomplete.

[Ralph Damren]

Ralph,
Hope you are staying warm. Just saw the news. Below zero in the whole Pine Tree State.

For all you East of the Sierra Nevadas, it was 68 in Sacramento today. If I didn't have to work I would have had on shorts and a tank top.

BTW, I know we would have called this incomplete.

Last week on this day I was sitting at Bahama Momma's (an outdoor bar on St Pete Beach,FL) sipping some frozen adult beverage- temp : 75 F.

This week ,on this day, I'm moving rather fast, sporting LL Bean Polar Protection gear eagerly awaiting a steaming mug of clam broth coca once I get out of the frozen tundra - temp : 22 below the donut (Mainereze for subzero) with a wind chill of -41 F.

Oh, yes...we ,too, would call this incomplete. In pregame , we discuss other " when in doubt IWs " :

  Runner is being tackled and in process of brought down when ball comes loose during tweet......
      IW or "quick whistle" = quick whistle

 Bubba falls on loose ball - tweet - as Bubba rolls over you see ball wedged between armpit and belly.....
     IW or fumble recovery = fumble recovery

 Forward pass deflects off receiver's hands - tweet - pass then hit ground....
     IW or incomplete pass = incomplete pass (if intercepted, you'd have IW)

 On one of these multi-used fields...BJ mistakes field hockey endline (inside our 5 yd line) for our goal line and tweets when breakaway runner crosses it ....
    IW or TD = TD -assume BJ was "just practicing .

Editor's disclaimer : These are not the recommendations of NFHS,NCAA,NFL,MPA,MAFO,AFL/CIO,PETA,ASPCA; but merely the mutterings of a grumpy ole' , who is still not warm after 3 cups of clam broth coca

[Suudy]

To your point, despite the lack of the words "deliberate" or "intentionally", I'm not sure if any NFL official would ever call the unintentional striking of a loose ball as "Illegal Batting", nor do I think they should in a case like this.  I was simply putting it out there as a "technical" violation that should probably be left alone, just as it would be a technical violation to call it an IW if a downfield official called it incomplete.

Interesting. I'm sure I've seen guys trying to recover a loose ball and batting it toward the goal. I think we see it every year on a QB fumble and an attempt to scoop and score. And I've never seen a call for illegal batting in these cases. Seems the interpretation is that it must be an intentional act. Strange the ruleset doesn't define it that way.

Does the NFL differentiate between a muff and a bat?

[AlUpstateNY]

Under NFL rules, no intent is required.  An Illegal Kick must be "deliberate", but batting is the striking or punching of a loose ball toward an opponent's goal line.

Perhaps a rare instance of helpful clarification, but NFHS Rules do specify "Batting" as, "intentionally slapping or striking the ball with the arm or hand" (NFHS:2:2), and differentiate it from a "Muff" as, "the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to sesure possession" (NFHS: 2:27)