"Replaced Player" and Clock

[TXMike]

Inside a minute left in game, Team A needs to score to regain the lead.  They run a pass play to middle of field, pass is caught and receiver tackled immediately but made 1st down yardage.  Clock stopped, ball is spotted, U steps away and R winds.  As the ball was being spotted A was hurrying to the line but A86 thought he was being replaced so ran off the field.  Coach sent him back out and he got o0n the line and set.  All of A was set for a second before snap.  As ball is being snapped  L shuts it down and flags A86 for illegal substitution.   Is this correct?  It is a dead ball foul?

[Legacy Zebra]

No, this is not a foul. Only replaced players are required to stay out for one play. Because a substitute did not take the place of A86 he is not a replaced player. 2-27-10. But yes, if he was actually replaced and then came back in it would be a dead ball foul. 3-5-2-d.

Edit: Looks like there is a contradiction between the rule and the AR. AR 3-5-2-IV says that is a live ball Illegal Substitution. I'm not sure what to think about this situation now.

[Diablo]

A86 thought he was being replaced so ran off the field.  Coach sent him back out and he got o0n the line and set.  As ball is being snapped  L shuts it down and flags A86 for illegal substitution.   Is this correct?  It is a dead ball foul?

A86 thinks he is being replaced and leaves the field of play.  Then Coach A sends A86 back onto the field of play.  Doesn't that qualify as a simulated replacement?
Live-ball foul

[BamaRef]

I have clock questions around this play. After the catch for the 1st down, R correctly gave the RFP and started the game clock at :28, A5 spiked the ball, stopping the game clock at :24. L had flag for IS.

If live ball foul, why did game clock start after enforcement and with RFP?  Shouldn't it have been on the snap since the result of the previous play was an incomplete forward pass?

[Kalle]

Are you sure that the flag was for a live-ball foul? This should be caught either before or at the snap, making it a DB foul.

It is also possible that the R used rule 3-4-3.

[BamaRef]

R did not use DB foul language during announcement. If DB prior to snap, clock should have been reset to :28.  If DB after the play, subsequent down should have been 2nd.

I agree 3-4-3 could have been used here; however, I wouldn't have and would have advised my R not to.  A did not gain a clock advantage unfairly via the foul, IMHO.

[TXMike]

Are you sure that the flag was for a live-ball foul? This should be caught either before or at the snap, making it a DB foul.

It is also possible that the R used rule 3-4-3.

What support is there to make it a dead ball foul?  As pointed out above, the only support to even make it a foul is the AR.  And that says live-ball

And if it was a dead ball foul, wouldn't Zap-10 apply?  I think A had a timeout left so would have avoided it but it was not even discussed during the announcements.

[TXMike]

Video  http://youtu.be/CM1TmJNv47U
Sorry about quality. Took it from online streaming site using a weak wifi connection

[NVFOA_Ump]

No, this is not a foul. Only replaced players are required to stay out for one play. Because a substitute did not take the place of A86 he is not a replaced player. 2-27-10. But yes, if he was actually replaced and then came back in it would be a dead ball foul. 3-5-2-d.

Edit: Looks like there is a contradiction between the rule and the AR. AR 3-5-2-IV says that is a live ball Illegal Substitution. I'm not sure what to think about this situation now.

I don't believe that AR 3-5-2-IV applies since A-86 was not "near his sideline".  AR 3-5-2-IV only applies if A-86 did not come back inside the 9's and IMO he did.  I didn't understand what happened here when I saw it live and still don't.  I guess it's possible that the L had the opinion that a substitute had started in when A-86 first left, then immediately left as A-86 came back in making A-86 a replaced player who was required to stay out for 1 play?  That's the only way I could see this being called a DB foul but I didn't see that happen in any of the televised shots.

[BankerRef]

If L thinks a sub is occurring why isn't the matchup opportunity given?

[clearwall]

Is this different from when a QB goes near the sidelines to get a play from his coach and then goes back in?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Is this different from when a QB goes near the sidelines to get a play from his coach and then goes back in?

I don't believe so.  On this play based on my original view and the R's announcement A-86 actually left the field of play after the down ended then returned prior to the next snap.  Was not clear if there was any incoming substitute that started in then left, or he simply realized he was supposed to be on the field and came back in. Still pondering why this would be a DB foul since IMO if it was judged that he was a replaced player back in the game without sitting out the required 1 play, it should be a live ball foul at the snap.  For some reason the officials "huddled" and immediately following the huddle wound the clock indicating that they had called a DB foul?

[clearwall]

That's my question, too. Seems kind of strict if you're going to call it. I cant see in this replay, does he actually LEAVE the field? If so, I might be more inclined to agree with a flag here. If not...seems a bit overly officious.

[bossman72]

I'm surprised they got this.

Question: mechanically, do sideline officials ever really take note of who leaves and who comes in?  I would not have gotten this as it's not something I pay close attention to

[Etref]

I'm surprised they got this.

Question: mechanically, do sideline officials ever really take note of who leaves and who comes in?  I would not have gotten this as it's not something I pay close attention to

Agree, so many things going on, keeping coaches back, chain crew, ball in, etc.

[bkdow]

I've sat under the training of a Big Ten official and that is one thing he said for me to add to my arsenal.  The players who leave and the player who come onto the field between plays.