Holding on Punt

[opsource]

Hi everyone,
i would like to know the enforcement of this penalty on this exemple:

4th and 7, punt formation, ball snapped and before kicked there's a holding on a gunner. What's the cal?

[Kalle]

Nowadays this is previous spot enforcement if the hold ends before the ball is kicked. Only fouls during the kick can qualify for PSKE (if other conditions are met). See A.R. 10-2-3-VII.

[opsource]

So, i ruled correctly given a 1st and 10 to the kicking team 10 yards from the LOS?

[Kalle]

So, i ruled correctly given a 1st and 10 to the kicking team 10 yards from the LOS?

Sounds like it, yes.

[bossman72]

So, i ruled correctly given a 1st and 10 to the kicking team 10 yards from the LOS?

I disagree.  You should always penalize holding on the gunner as PSK.

The philosophy of PSK is that fouls that happen as part of the punt rush should be penalized at the previous spot.  Fouls that happen as part of the punt coverage should be PSK.

In your example, I would make this PSK if at all possible.

[hefnerjm]

I disagree.  You should always penalize holding on the gunner as PSK.

The philosophy of PSK is that fouls that happen as part of the punt rush should be penalized at the previous spot.  Fouls that happen as part of the punt coverage should be PSK.

In your example, I would make this PSK if at all possible.

As a newer official, it is helpful to hear more than what you can read in the rulebook...more about the "why" of a rule.  I will remember this going into next season.  Thanks Bossman.

[Kalle]

I disagree.  You should always penalize holding on the gunner as PSK.

I guess the rules makers disagree with you, considering they very clearly have made this action non-PSKE (considering how convoluted some rules are, it would not be a stretch to have the PSKE rule reference snapper and some yardage from him, if only fouls on the rush should be non-PSKE). I'm no expert on philosophy, but I think Rom Gilbert is, and he is of the opinion that this is non-PSKE. See http://romgilbert.us/p-1304.htm play #3

[bossman72]

I guess the rules makers disagree with you, considering they very clearly have made this action non-PSKE (considering how convoluted some rules are, it would not be a stretch to have the PSKE rule reference snapper and some yardage from him, if only fouls on the rush should be non-PSKE). I'm no expert on philosophy, but I think Rom Gilbert is, and he is of the opinion that this is non-PSKE. See http://romgilbert.us/p-1304.htm play #3

Rom's tests aren't about philosophy, they are about the rules.  The question/answer you posted is 100% accurate by strict rule book interpretation, which by philosophy would not be the best way to handle this.

You mentioned the rules makers - the real reason the rules makers changed the rule to "while the ball is in the air" is to get rid of the requirement of the foul being 3 yards down field.  There are times when R would rush the punt and a K player (like the personal protector) would block him 5 yards behind the LOS.  Then, when the ball is kicked and that K player now wants to shed the R player and release down field, the R player would hold him.  Under the old PSK rule, this would be previous spot enforcement since it did not occur >3 yds down field.  Under new PSK, this is PSK enforcement since it was during the kick.

Making the foul in the original play previous spot enforcement is grabbing the crappy end of the stick.  Do not give R a first down on a foul that is part of the kick coverage!

[JasonTX]

I disagree.  You should always penalize holding on the gunner as PSK.

The philosophy of PSK is that fouls that happen as part of the punt rush should be penalized at the previous spot.  Fouls that happen as part of the punt coverage should be PSK.

In your example, I would make this PSK if at all possible.

Where is that philosophy written?  The AR in the rule book shows a team B hold before the kick and says it is not PSK.

[Kalle]

Rom's tests aren't about philosophy, they are about the rules.  The question/answer you posted is 100% accurate by strict rule book interpretation, which by philosophy would not be the best way to handle this.

Actually Rom's play situations are based on his best understanding on what should be ruled on the field, both by rule and by philosophy. From the 2013 training video I got the impression that the rules makers want PSK only after the ball has been kicked, ie. possession has been voluntarily lost (although by rule team A is still in possession). No reference was made to the enforcement applying also to some fouls before the kick.

[Bitsy Arena]

If the hold begins before the ball is kicked but continues into the kick itself, I can agree that the philosophy should make this PSK. Don’t forget that there can be a time lag between the hold and the kick too – calling it in one way doesn’t take any long-ish time lag into account. The hold could happen and then the punter could be flushed out to one side before kicking the ball with an obvious delay between the two acts. This is the danger of philosophy over rules –  philosophy can get you into trouble, but correct rules application never does.

[bossman72]

Where is that philosophy written?  The AR in the rule book shows a team B hold before the kick and says it is not PSK.

I agree BY LETTER OF THE LAW THESE ARE PREVIOUS SPOT FOULS!!!!!!

That's not what I'm getting at.  Use your head when this happens in your game.

[Sonofanump]

The hold was clearly after the ball was kicked. 

[hefnerjm]

Hi everyone,
i would like to know the enforcement of this penalty on this exemple:

4th and 7, punt formation, ball snapped and before kicked there's a holding on a gunner. What's the cal?

The hold was clearly after the ball was kicked. 

Not according to the OP's scenario.   

[Sonofanump]

Not according to the OP's scenario.   

That is my point.

I don't care what the OP says, if he comes to me to report such foul, we will make it PSK as the philosophy intends.  There is no need to get technical on this.  The foul occurred after the kick or he won't be around long.

[ljudge]

That is my point.

I don't care what the OP says, if he comes to me to report such foul, we will make it PSK as the philosophy intends.  There is no need to get technical on this.  The foul occurred after the kick or he won't be around long.

Your point is well taken about philosophies but when they put stuff in print I have to believe it's what the national coordinator wants or it wouldn't be there.  In this particular case by going against a published ruling you risk the possibility of having some explaining to do. 

Directly from the published AR's:
Team A snaps the ball at the A-35 on fourth and seven. Just after the
snap lineman B77 grabs guard A66 and pulls him to one side, allowing
linebacker B43 to shoot the gap to try to block the kick. B44 catches the
kick at the B-25 and returns to the B-40 where he is tackled. RULING:
B77’s holding foul is not covered by postscrimmage kick enforcement
since it is before the kick. The 10-yard penalty is enforced at the
previous spot. The penalty yardage gives Team A first down at the A-45.

[Sonofanump]

Pull and shoot with an interior lineman to block the kick is a whole lot different that holding a gunner to prevent him from tackling the return man.

[trixx32]

Hello Guys,

We discussed this scenario on an officials clinic last year. In the particular case of the gunner being held, they wanted the penalty assessed at the PSK spot, coaches don't want their special teams running the punt coverage twice, that was the philosophy behind it. Interior lineman is a whole different situation. Just trying to help. Thanks.

[BlindZebra]

Hello Guys,

We discussed this scenario on an officials clinic last year. In the particular case of the gunner being held, they wanted the penalty assessed at the PSK spot, coaches don't want their special teams running the punt coverage twice, that was the philosophy behind it. Interior lineman is a whole different situation. Just trying to help. Thanks.

I'll agree with that and Boss.  I think that if it is a normal snap then kick play, a hold, either on a gunner or a lineman, should try to be put as PSK.  I just feel like the intent of this rule is for holding on a rugby style kicker or a play where the punter muffed the snap and there is a delay in the kick then should be previous spot.  But if it's just a normal punt, I would do my best to make this PSK.

Think I am screwing A for looking at it that way?

[ruletool]

1 more point I'd like to bring to the table. We assume here that the calling official is fully aware of the moment the ball is kicked. Just like he should be fully aware when the pass is in the air to call DPI.

For wing officials, that can be hard to rule on simultaneously. In such a case, I would support bossman72's philosophy and enforce it as PSK. But, if the calling official is sure it was well before the kick, I would go with what the rule says. It does seem a bit harsh though, but that's the rule.