Fumble pileup on 4th down, short of line to gain

[matrixwalker]

I had this happen to me last season, 4th down, offense fumbles, players from both sides scramble for the ball, pileup is a good 5 yards short of the line to gain.  Since I knew it'd be a turnover no matter what, I didn't really bother to dig, just yelled "It's a turnover" and once the players un-piled, turned the ball over to the defense.  We conveniently ruled the defense recovered the fumble, but I suppose it really didn't matter.

How would you guys handle such a situation?

[prab]

Seems to me that what you did worked.

All's well that ends well!

[AlUpstateNY]

Perception often is reality, and "selling" your call can affect perception.  When you actually see who has recovered a loose ball, clearly and emphatically pointing in the proper direction answers the question of which team has possession. 

Verbal observations are useful to alert those involved in the recovery effort that the play is over, possession has been decided so there's no reason to continue actively pursuing possession.  The most effective tool official's have to control behavior is a strong voice alerting players to things they need to understand, but may not be aware of.

[Ralph Damren]

My only concern with yelling "turnover" is that if there had been an unnoticed flag against B ,the issues of did B really recover and did they do it with "clean hands". Check first to be sure there are no flags.

Yelling "turnover" could also possibly confuse the umpire into thinking someone just returned from the bakery.

[ncwingman]

My only concern with yelling "turnover" is that if there had been an unnoticed flag against B ,the issues of did B really recover and did they do it with "clean hands". Check first to be sure there are no flags.

Wouldn't that only matter if the foul was after change of possession, and in this case -- fumble into pile, ball dead as soon as recovered -- that would be a dead ball foul (or not a foul at all). If you have to dig for the ball in a pile, there's no live ball action after the change of possession and the "clean hands" provision is irrelevant, as a live ball foul on B would necessarily give them "dirty hands".

In general, I agree with you. In this specific case, it's sort of a moot point.

[prab]

In general, I agree with you. In this specific case, it's sort of a moot point.

+1

Nice!!  The word "moot" is underutilized.  It just has that certain ring to it. 

[Ralph Damren]

I agree with Prab for agreeing with NCwingman . I was very moot, and will attempt to be mute instead of moot in future posts. I still do have a concern that yelling "TURNOVER" may bring a false sense of hunger to those that may feel the bakery truck has arrived.

[bama_stripes]

In general, I agree with you. In this specific case, it's sort of a moot point.

I don't think so.  There could be an "unseen" flag for any number of B fouls (illegal substitution, defensive holding, face-mask, etc.) that would give A a new series.

In addition, the "stat guys" would probably like to know if it was a recovered fumble or a turnover on downs.  At any rate -- what's the rush?

[Atlanta Blue]

In addition, the "stat guys" would probably like to know if it was a recovered fumble or a turnover on downs.  At any rate -- what's the rush?

Being one of them, I can guarantee you, if you don't call it one way or the other, I will.  Actually, I have to, it has to be recorded one way or the other.

Now, in HS, no overseeing body is probably going to care.  But don't try that in a NCAA D1 or NFL game.  You WILL hear about it again.

[prab]

The OP did not have any flags.  The proper signal seems to be #8, "First Down B".  The signal is the same whether the first down was gained by B recovering the fumble or by A not reaching the line to gain on 4th down.  If a coach insists, failing to reach the line to gain on 4th down is a guaranteed correct  call.  Therefore, in the OP, spending a lot of time trying to decide whether a fumble recovery by B is technically correct is a variation on the "picking fly poop out of pepper" theme.  Adding an "unseen flag" to the OP means you are now trying to pick fly poop out of pepper while wearing boxing gloves.

[Jim D.]

I would recommend:
1) Stop the clock.
2) Loudly tell the players "It's over" repeatedly and unpile the players (no need to dive in to see who has it - just stand back and supervise the process).
3) At the end of the unpiling, either one player has it (he gets the stat if needed) or it's join possession (no turnover).
4) Signal first down for B.

[ncwingman]

In addition, the "stat guys" would probably like to know if it was a recovered fumble or a turnover on downs.

Being one of them, I can guarantee you, if you don't call it one way or the other, I will.  Actually, I have to, it has to be recorded one way or the other.

Now, in HS, no overseeing body is probably going to care.  But don't try that in a NCAA D1 or NFL game.  You WILL hear about it again.

3) At the end of the unpiling, either one player has it (he gets the stat if needed) or it's join possession (no turnover).
4) Signal first down for B.

As a covering official, what's the signal you'd give to the stat guy to say who recovered the fumble? At the end, you signal first down for B either way. Unless you got on a microphone and announced it, who would ever be able to tell the difference?

[Rulesman]

Unless you got on a microphone and announced it, who would ever be able to tell the difference?

Someone with a good pair of binoculars. With the right equipment, and after spending the past 5 years in a press box, I've come to learn you can see a lot more from there than the average person might think.

[Jim D.]

As a covering official, what's the signal you'd give to the stat guy to say who recovered the fumble? At the end, you signal first down for B either way. Unless you got on a microphone and announced it, who would ever be able to tell the difference?

Years ago in NCAA, the mechanic was for the covering official to grab the guy who recovered the fumble and tap him on the shoulder to indicate that he recovered the fumble. 

Now they prance off the field holding the ball up so every one can see how awesome they are.

[prab]

Years ago in NCAA, the mechanic was for the covering official to grab the guy who recovered the fumble and tap him on the shoulder to indicate that he recovered the fumble. 

Now they prance off the field holding the ball up so every one can see how awesome they are.

+1 for finding a legitimate way to use the word "prance" on a football forum.  Another underutilized word!

[Magician]

Be careful yelling "turnover" until you see the ball. You would hate to do that and find out the ball has squirted out the other side and is currently free. If the pile has been there for a couple seconds with no sign of the ball it is safer to announce something like "it's over" and blowing a whistle and stopping the clock.

[Legacy Zebra]

+1 for finding a legitimate way to use the word "prance" on a football forum.  Another underutilized word!

The NCAA rule book actually uses it in the ARs. 9-2-1-V mentions a ball carrier prancing backward into the end zone.