When to start the clock?

[sczeebra]

With time running out in the game QB for A bobbles the 2nd down snap, then picks it up and grounds it for an illegal forward pass. Minus 5 & LOD. Does one invoke Rule 3-4-6 and start it on the ready, or not?

[GA Umpire]

With time running out in the game QB for A bobbles the 2nd down snap, then picks it up and grounds it for an illegal forward pass. Minus 5 & LOD. Does one invoke Rule 3-4-6 and start it on the ready, or not?

Referee's judgement. 

The player was trying to stop the clock legally.  His mistake was muffing the snap.  I would start on the snap.

[prab]

With time running out in the game QB for A bobbles the 2nd down snap, then picks it up and grounds it for an illegal forward pass. Minus 5 & LOD. Does one invoke Rule 3-4-6 and start it on the ready, or not?

I disagree with GA Umpire and say start the clock on the ready.  I do not believe that the QB's "intent" is relevant in this scenario.  He did in fact attempt to conserve time illegally.

[Bwest]

I disagree with GA Umpire and say start the clock on the ready.  I do not believe that the QB's "intent" is relevant in this scenario.  He did in fact attempt to conserve time illegally.

Agreed. Conserving time via an illegal forward pass.

[Ump33]

Agree with prab & Bwest ... Start on the Ready, supported by Case Book 3.4.6 A.

3.4.6 SITUATION A: With time expiring in the second or fourth period and A behind in the score, A1 intentionally throws the ball forward to the ground in order to stop the clock. A1's action took place:
     a.   immediately after receiving the snap while A1 was lined up 3 yards deep; or
     b.   immediately after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap; or
     c.   after A1 delayed and took more than one step after receiving a direct hand-to-hand snap.
RULING: Illegal forward pass in (a) and (c), the clock shall be started on the ready-for-play signal. In (b), the grounding is legal and the clock remains stopped until the subsequent snap. (7-5-2d Exception)

[Ralph Damren]

Every rule (3-4-6) has a reason and this is a major reason for this one.

TGIF trivia : There is another situation that involves using 3-4-6 that involves a timeout. Who wins the Kewpie doll???

[Atlanta Blue]

1.  I agree, on the RFP.
2.  Would it change your mind if you knew the QB was trying to spike the ball, and simply bobbled the snap before doing so?  Yes, it's still a foul for an Illegal Forward Pass, but he was trying to legally conserve time and simply bobbled the ball.  He had no intent of using the illegal forward pass to conserve time, he just didn't get it right.

[Atlanta Blue]

TGIF trivia : There is another situation that involves using 3-4-6 that involves a timeout. Who wins the Kewpie doll???

Are you referring to a team calling an excessive time out?  It shouldn't be granted, but if it is, the clock should be restarted as soon as the mistake is realized and the ball is RFP.

[Ralph Damren]

Are you referring to a team calling an excessive time out?  It shouldn't be granted, but if it is, the clock should be restarted as soon as the mistake is realized and the ball is RFP.

Good try,AB, but no cigar/Kewpie doll. There is no penalty for calling an excessive time out. There is ;however, a timeout that results in a  that could result in a 3-4-6 application....

[mardunn]

Good try,AB, but no cigar/Kewpie doll. There is no penalty for calling an excessive time out. There is ;however, a timeout that results in a  that could result in a 3-4-6 application....

If a team calls a timeout challenging an application of a rule without any time outs remaining (it goes without saying the crew didn't make a mistake and the challenge was unnecessary ) , you flag them for delay and can start on the ready (normally on the snap, thanks 3-4-6).

[Ralph Damren]

Congrats, Mardunn, you win the Kewpie  doll . Consider this......

 The Wormville Weasels are trailing by 2 with only seconds to go ,the clock running, out of timeouts and the opponent's ball on 4th down. Things looked  grim until Coach Smarts -an alum of Yale, a fine school with fine traditions - had a brainstorm :

      Aware of 2-6-1, the ability to ask for a coach referee conference;3-5-5c, the ability to ask for such after your timeouts are used up; 3-6-2c, resulting in a delay of game foul; 3-4-3i, clock starts on snap after such penalty; Coach Smarts requests such a conference. Referee Wiseoldone obliges.

 Coach Smarts : "I believe you have the wrong down "
 Ref Wiseoldone : "I KNOW we don't ."
 Coach Smarts : "Well I guess I was wrong, so you flag me for DOG and start the clock on the snap.."
 Ref Wiseoldone : "Correct, except I plan to invoking ole' 3-4-6 and ending 'er in 2 secs. "

This was not Wiseoldone's first rodeo. The officials post game snack consisted of parsnips,radishes and parboiled weasel.  

[FLAHL]

In Ralph's situation above, suppose it looks like Coach Smarts' team will be unable to line up and run a play before time expires.  If he is given a referee/coach conference timeout,  his team will line up such that they will be able to legally snap the ball immediately after the penalty is administered and the RFP is sounded.  It cost him 5 yards, but he gets a play that he otherwise wouldn't have gotten.  I'm not sure how likely this scenario is, but what if it happens?

[mardunn]

In Ralph's situation above, suppose it looks like Coach Smarts' team will be unable to line up and run a play before time expires.  If he is given a referee/coach conference timeout,  his team will line up such that they will be able to legally snap the ball immediately after the penalty is administered and the RFP is sounded.  It cost him 5 yards, but he gets a play that he otherwise wouldn't have gotten.  I'm not sure how likely this scenario is, but what if it happens?

So what if Coach Smarts's team lines up during the obviously unnecessary conference when they would have otherwise been unable to?

Yikes, then we've got a pickle.  If it were really that brazenly unfair, remember 9-9-1 gives broad authority to right those wrongs.  It's a big hammer though and probably would go over well with Coach Smarts. 

[bkdow]

I think Coach Smart's deserves to get the extra play if he has coached his team to well to respond to all that confusion when time is expiring in a close game.   

I've never seen a team that could pull all that off.

[bama_stripes]

The officials post game snack consisted of parsnips,radishes and parboiled weasel.

Remind me not to go to dinner with that crew.

Although one of my guys is married to a parboiled weasel.

[Atlanta Blue]

Although one of my guys is married to a parboiled weasel.

I didn't think those kind of marriages were legal in Alabama.

[Ralph Damren]

Case 9.9.1A addresses a similar act with the recommendation of invoking 9-9-1, cranking the clock w/o letting A run a play and ending 'er. Where Referee Wiseoldone was a 7th grade dropout, he probably would not appreciate Coach Smarts' Ivy League intellect and would follow the Case Book's advice.

While sharing AB's concern about legal marriages in Alabama, I do recall rumors of lonely Maine farmers, on occasion, "dating" outside of their species. Usually barnyard animals, I presume, marriage outside of ones species is still strictly forbidden in Maine.

Caution : A weasel is a very vicious animal with very sharp teeth - not  "dating"  material to even the loneliest of the lonely.

[AlUpstateNY]

Caution : A weasel is a very vicious animal with very sharp teeth - not  "dating"  material to even the loneliest of the lonely.

Except of course, another weasel.

[Martin Kiff]

The difference between England and Scotland.   In England they say, "Hey, you get off of my cloud."  In Scotland they say, "Hey McCloud, get off of my ewe."  I don't know what they say in Maine.   If the Head Coach wants a conference to stop the clock wait until you raise the ball above your head, calmly look him in the eye and apologize by saying, "I'm sorry coach, you were crying so bad in the first quarter that I had to tune you out so we could play the game.  Now whats your rule question......"