Author Topic: Play Situations (Read 239681 times)

Hawkeye · « **Reply #50 on:** June 19, 2015, 09:54:51 AM »

Quote

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.

Quote from: Bitsy Arena on June 18, 2015, 10:29:35 AM

is this not illegal touching too?

Note: Illegally kicking a loose ball usually carries a loss of down if it's by team A. But here, since the foul occurred when a scrimmage kick was beyond the NZ, there is no loss of down. The two options are A 4/30 A-30 or B 1/10 B-40. In this case team B will likely take the ball.

So,

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #51 on:** June 19, 2015, 12:12:48 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 19, 2015, 09:54:51 AM

Note: Illegally kicking a loose ball usually carries a loss of down if it's by team A. But here, since the foul occurred when a scrimmage kick was beyond the NZ, there is no loss of down. The two options are A 4/30 A-30 or B 1/10 B-40. In this case team B will likely take the ball.

So you are saying this isn't illegal touching?

Kalle · « **Reply #52 on:** June 19, 2015, 01:59:25 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 19, 2015, 09:54:51 AM

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.

Would have fallen for this but in the context I think I get it right

B 1/10 @ A-30, previous spot, loss of down. Option to have it at A-45 after the FM penalty, but would not give that option to the captain. No illegal touching option.

Hawkeye · « **Reply #53 on:** June 19, 2015, 04:08:03 PM »

Sorry, BlindZebra, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't illegal touching, just that there is no loss of down, so neither of the penalty enforcements are better than taking the ball at the illegal touching spot.

Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.

Kalle · « **Reply #54 on:** June 19, 2015, 04:11:52 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 19, 2015, 04:08:03 PM

Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.

Yup, a foul against the ball is always a pure 3 and 1 foul...

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #55 on:** June 20, 2015, 05:12:55 PM »

Quote

Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.

I disagree. 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 both say "Penalties for all fouls between the goal lines by the kicking team other than kick-catch interference during...a scrimmage kick play in which the ball crosses the neutral zone... are enforced either at the previous spot or where the subsequent dead ball belongs to Team B, at the option of Team B." (My emphasis added)

While this would normally be enforced from the spot of the foul because of 3-and-1, 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 specifically say it has to be previous spot or the dead ball spot.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #56 on:** June 22, 2015, 09:09:34 AM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 19, 2015, 04:08:03 PM

Sorry, BlindZebra, I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't illegal touching, just that there is no loss of down, so neither of the penalty enforcements are better than taking the ball at the illegal touching spot.

Kalle, my situation would be a spot foul, so B 1/10 A-26.

Ah! Makes sense now when I read it that way. But are we saying that this is a 3 & 1 enforcement? I'm with Legacy on this one. Since the original play was that the ball crossed the NZ, we are now using the enforcement 10-2-4...wouldn't we? I mean the rule specifically states all fouls other than KCI. Since this isn't KCI, why would IKB be different?

Hawkeye · « **Reply #57 on:** June 22, 2015, 01:07:22 PM »

From 2014 Bulletin #1
Foul by Team A in Its End Zone
2. Fourth and 25 at the A-3. A22 punts from his end zone. Tackle A77 holds in the end zone before or during the kick. B33 returns the punt to the B-45.
RULING: Team B may accept a safety or elect to have the penalty enforced at the B-45. In the latter case, it would be first and 10 for Team B at the A-45. (10-2-2-b)

I'm citing that bulletin play because my understanding of the phrase "enforced at the previous spot" in 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 is that we enforce the penalty with the previous spot as the basic spot (or use special enforcement if applicable). It seems with this bulletin play, RR is using the special enforcement from 10-2-2-b, which signals to me that we should enforce the team A penalty as we would in any other situation if team B elects not to tack on the penalty under 6-3-13 (10-2-4). If RR's ruling on this bulletin play had been, A 4/26.5 at the A-1.5 or B 1/10 at the B-45, then that would signal that the "enforce at the previous spot" was a literal interpretation.

Kalle · « **Reply #58 on:** June 22, 2015, 02:37:02 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 22, 2015, 01:07:22 PM

I'm citing that bulletin play because my understanding of the phrase "enforced at the previous spot" in 6-3-13 and 10-2-4 is that we enforce the penalty with the previous spot as the basic spot (or use special enforcement if applicable). It seems with this bulletin play, RR is using the special enforcement from 10-2-2-b, which signals to me that we should enforce the team A penalty as we would in any other situation if team B elects not to tack on the penalty under 6-3-13 (10-2-4). If RR's ruling on this bulletin play had been, A 4/26.5 at the A-1.5 or B 1/10 at the B-45, then that would signal that the "enforce at the previous spot" was a literal interpretation.

I think I agree with you. The rule language is not very clear and can be read either way, but it would be strange to fall back only to the special enforcement in this. To take a more annoying example, take the punt+illegal kicking play we have with the illegal kicking occurring in team A end zone and the ball then crossing the NZ. Would you not have a safety as one of the options for team B?

Bwest · « **Reply #59 on:** June 22, 2015, 02:44:35 PM »

Quote from: Kalle on June 22, 2015, 02:37:02 PM

I think I agree with you. The rule language is not very clear and can be read either way, but it would be strange to fall back only to the special enforcement in this. To take a more annoying example, take the punt+illegal kicking play we have with the illegal kicking occurring in team A end zone and the ball then crossing the NZ. Would you not have a safety as one of the options for team B?

With the updated language this year, a safety is unambiguously the only option as this is a foul in the end zone.

Last year the situation was murkier.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #60 on:** June 22, 2015, 02:57:53 PM »

Ok I think I see where you are coming from now.

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 19, 2015, 09:54:51 AM

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the A-38 and remains behind the NZ. A8, in disgust, runs to the ball and kicks the ball off the ground at the A-36. The ball travels down field to the B-35 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-40 where he is tackled by the facemask.

I agree with both of you that this would be a spot foul and B 1/10 @ A26

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.

But let me understand you on this play. What you are saying is that if B elects the previous spot as the enforcement spot, 3 & 1 kicks in and the previous spot is the basic spot. The loss of down still counts and we are going 10 yards from the A40 and giving B the ball making it B 1/10 @ A30. Correct?

Hawkeye · « **Reply #61 on:** June 22, 2015, 04:06:41 PM »

Quote from: BlindZebra on June 22, 2015, 02:57:53 PM

Ok I think I see where you are coming from now.

I agree with both of you that this would be a spot foul and B 1/10 @ A26

A 4/20 @ A-40. A8 shanks his punt which lands at the B-45. A8, in disgust, runs down the field and kicks the ball off the ground at the B-40. The ball travels down field to the B-10 where punt returner B12 picks up the ball and returns it to the B-20 where he is tackled by the facemask.

But let me understand you on this play. What you are saying is that if B elects the previous spot as the enforcement spot, 3 & 1 kicks in and the previous spot is the basic spot. The loss of down still counts and we are going 10 yards from the A40 and giving B the ball making it B 1/10 @ A30. Correct?

Yes, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes it a spot foul (in my scenario), also a loss of down because the illegal kicking occurs when the ball is behind the NZ. 9-4-4-Penalty

In the new play you entered, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes enforcment from the previous spot, but there is no loss of down in the penalty because this is the exception, the scrimmage kick is beyond the NZ when the illegal kicking occurs, so B would have two options: B 1/10 @ B-35 or A 4/30 @ A-30. 9-4-4-Penalty-Exception

BlindZebra · « **Reply #62 on:** June 23, 2015, 01:10:36 PM »

Quote from: Hawkeye on June 22, 2015, 04:06:41 PM

Yes, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes it a spot foul (in my scenario), also a loss of down because the illegal kicking occurs when the ball is behind the NZ. 9-4-4-Penalty

In the new play you entered, previous spot is the basic spot and 3 & 1 enforcement makes enforcment from the previous spot, but there is no loss of down in the penalty because this is the exception, the scrimmage kick is beyond the NZ when the illegal kicking occurs, so B would have two options: B 1/10 @ B-35 or A 4/30 @ A-30. 9-4-4-Penalty-Exception

This play screwed me up...but I understand now it now.

To continue with kick plays:

A4/1 @B45. A10, from shotgun formation, makes a quick kick. After the ball is kicked, B45 contacts A10 causing him to fall to the ground, The ball lands in B's end zone untouched by B. Ruling?

Kalle · « **Reply #63 on:** June 23, 2015, 02:05:38 PM »

Quote from: BlindZebra on June 23, 2015, 01:10:36 PM

A4/1 @B45. A10, from shotgun formation, makes a quick kick. After the ball is kicked, B45 contacts A10 causing him to fall to the ground, The ball lands in B's end zone untouched by B. Ruling?

Sounds like it is not obvious that a scrimmage kick will be made, so no foul, unless late enough to be a PF against a player obviously out of play. 1/10 for team B at B-20.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #64 on:** June 24, 2015, 04:37:09 PM »

4/8 @ A35. B45 is in position to catch the put at the B25 when A2, thinking he has timed the coverage correctly, tackles B45 below the waist before the ball arrives. The ball bounces at the B25 and is recovered by B6 at the B15. B6 returns the ball to the B40 where he is forced out of bounds. Ruling? Discuss communication to the Referee.

dvasques · « **Reply #65 on:** June 24, 2015, 04:55:07 PM »

Quote from: BlindZebra on June 24, 2015, 04:37:09 PM

4/8 @ A35. B45 is in position to catch the put at the B25 when A2, thinking he has timed the coverage correctly, tackles B45 below the waist before the ball arrives. The ball bounces at the B25 and is recovered by B6 at the B15. B6 returns the ball to the B40 where he is forced out of bounds. Ruling? Discuss communication to the Referee.

B 1/10 @ B-40 because 6-4-1 penalty states it's a spot of the foul enforcement. And I can't find any other case in which the 15 could be tacked on...

I'm interested in the communication discussion...

jg-me · « **Reply #66 on:** June 24, 2015, 06:11:36 PM »

I seem to recall that at some point in the past few years RR put a KCI play on one of the seasons videos that relates to this topic. Basically what occurred was KCI that was not targeting but was unnecessarily rough. Team B had a good return so simply penalizing for the interference was not going to be of benefit. I don't remember his exact verbiage but essentially it was to call the foul KCI by UNR and enforce the UNR as a tack-on.

dvasques · « **Reply #67 on:** June 24, 2015, 09:42:20 PM »

Where do we find text that says UNR can be tacked on?
I'm having trouble finding UNR at all

Hawkeye · « **Reply #68 on:** June 24, 2015, 10:07:33 PM »

I remember that video too. Can't put my fingers on it right now.

Rule 9-1, the opening paragraph contains language about UNR.

You could tack-on the UNR because it would be a Team A foul during the kick other than KCI (6-3-13, 10-2-4).

dvasques · « **Reply #69 on:** June 24, 2015, 10:53:21 PM »

yes... it's there... my miss
and I looked at it 3 times

Kalle · « **Reply #70 on:** June 25, 2015, 03:13:16 AM »

You can treat KCI just like DPI, in that you can call an action that qualifies both as a PF and a KCI/DPI a PF, if the enforcement is better for the offended team. I would like the rule language changed to reflect this.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #71 on:** June 25, 2015, 09:41:15 AM »

Quote from: Kalle on June 25, 2015, 03:13:16 AM

You can treat KCI just like DPI, in that you can call an action that qualifies both as a PF and a KCI/DPI a PF, if the enforcement is better for the offended team. I would like the rule language changed to reflect this.

All are right! I don't remember seeing the Redding video, but there is a rule in the book that talks about it. take a look at 6-4-1-g. Read that yesterday and thought it was interesting.

I would turn this into a UNR so that they can tack this on.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #72 on:** June 25, 2015, 01:50:53 PM »

A 2/4@ A45. A11 drops back and throws to A88 at the 50. Before the ball arrives, B21 launches and contacts A88's helmet with his shoulder. The ball deflects off A88 and is caught by A82 who runs it to the B38 before he is tackled. Ruling?

Bwest · « **Reply #73 on:** June 25, 2015, 01:55:56 PM »

Quote from: BlindZebra on June 25, 2015, 01:50:53 PM

A 2/4@ A45. A11 drops back and throws to A88 at the 50. Before the ball arrives, B21 launches and contacts A88's helmet with his shoulder. The ball deflects off A88 and is caught by A82 who runs it to the B38 before he is tackled. Ruling?

Personal foul, pass interference with targeting. A 1/10 @ B23. B21 is ejected.

BlindZebra · « **Reply #74 on:** June 25, 2015, 03:57:27 PM »

Quote from: Bwest on June 25, 2015, 01:55:56 PM

Personal foul, pass interference with targeting. A 1/10 @ B23. B21 is ejected.

Be careful how you would report that to the Referee. Wouldn't want him saying "defensive pass interference with targeting." No biggie if he did since B would decline the DPI and get the ball way down the field at the B38. But I do agree with your ruling. Tack it on!