10 second runoff play situations

[justaLJ]

Wondering if anyone else has any heart burn over plays 13 & 14.

Unable to copy/paste at the moment, but both involve helmets coming off, a live ball foul (OH in one, DOF in the other), and a run ending inbounds short of the LTG.

The rulings indicate zap 10 is on because the fouls did not cause the clock to stop.  However, why is the clocked stopped?  It's not just because a helmet came off, we have a flag on the ground to deal with.

Not sure how those two are supported by the rule the way it's currently written, which says we have a runoff situation when a helmet comes off is the ONLY reason the clock is stopped.

[Bwest]

Wondering if anyone else has any heart burn over plays 13 & 14.

Unable to copy/paste at the moment, but both involve helmets coming off, a live ball foul (OH in one, DOF in the other), and a run ending inbounds short of the LTG.

The rulings indicate zap 10 is on because the fouls did not cause the clock to stop.  However, why is the clocked stopped?  It's not just because a helmet came off, we have a flag on the ground to deal with.

Not sure how those two are supported by the rule the way it's currently written, which says we have a runoff situation when a helmet comes off is the ONLY reason the clock is stopped.

I had the same thought you did. Previously I would have thought that the penalty administration meant there was no zap 10.

[Fatman325]

Using the principles from plays 13 & 14 try this one.

A 1/G B8 4th quarter, A trails by 4 and has no timeouts left. A12 hands to A24 who runs to the B2 and is tackled inbounds. During A24's run B99 launches to the head area of A12 and knocks him unconscious. At the end of the play the game clock reads :09 and A12 is unable to continue.

[Kalle]

A 1/G B8 4th quarter, A trails by 4 and has no timeouts left. A12 hands to A24 who runs to the B2 and is tackled inbounds. During A24's run B99 launches to the head area of A12 and knocks him unconscious. At the end of the play the game clock reads :09 and A12 is unable to continue.

(Haven't seen tha play situations you refer to, so take this for what it is worth)

Why would team A want a runoff in this situation? I'd eject B99, 1/G from B-1, play clock at 25, game clock on the snap (using 9-2-3 to let team A to run two plays instead of one hurry-up).

Edit: Or hmm, are you saying that the hit by B99 is legal? In that case game over, team B will take the 10-second runoff.

[Bwest]

(Haven't seen tha play situations you refer to, so take this for what it is worth)

Why would team A want a runoff in this situation? I'd eject B99, 1/G from B-1, play clock at 25, game clock on the snap (using 9-2-3 to let team A to run two plays instead of one hurry-up).

Edit: Or hmm, are you saying that the hit by B99 is legal? In that case game over, team B will take the 10-second runoff.

No he's saying there's a foul by B. But according to the new 10-second runoff play situations released by the CFO, it doesn't matter, B can still elect to run-off 10 seconds. The game will be over, because the clock "expired" after the play ended.

Here's the relevant play situation:

14. During the play, A55 loses his helmet. The ball carrier is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. Defensive tackle B73 is flagged for being in the neutral zone at the snap.
RULING: A55 must leave the game for one play.
 Team B has the option of a 10-second runoff because the offside foul does not cause the clock to stop.
5
 Team A may avoid the runoff and/or keep A55 in the game by being granted a team timeout; note that the single timeout accomplishes both.
 Play clock: 25 seconds.
 Game clock starts on the referee’s signal if there is a 10-second runoff and on the snap if there is no runoff.

[justaLJ]

Perhaps they are trying to prevent teams being "saved" from a possible zap 10 by a live ball foul when a helmet comes off or there's an injury.  I could come around on that philosophically, but it's not supported by rule.

[Kalle]

I fail to understand the clock advantage gained by a team with an injury or a helmet-off in a situation where there is a live-ball foul on the opponent. Thus, I fail to see any reason for a ZAP-10. Hopefully I will be enlightened here

[jg-me]

I can confirm that RR does rule there is an option for the zap 10 in these situations. In addition, if the zap 10 results in the clock reading zero in these scenarios the game is over and not extended for an excepted penalty.

[Johnponz]

I do not know if I agree, but I understand the logic.   The logic is the offside is not a foul that causes the clock to stop such as FS or an illegal forward/backward pass.  Since the foul does not cause the clock to stop the reason for the stoppage was the injury or the helmet off.

I don't know how the clock stoppage is any different than a first down, but I understand the logic.

[Bwest]

I do not know if I agree, but I understand the logic.   The logic is the offside is not a foul that causes the clock to stop such as FS or an illegal forward/backward pass.  Since the foul does not cause the clock to stop the reason for the stoppage was the injury or the helmet off.

I don't know how the clock stoppage is any different than a first down, but I understand the logic.

The foul doesn't cause the clock to stop, but we would be stopping the clock without the injury or helmet to enforce the penalty. So the helmet or injury is not the only reason we stop the clock at the end of the play.

Oh well, not the first interpretation to seemingly conflict with the rule

[justaLJ]

We can put this one to bed, further confirmation from RR response to supervisor:

"For the 10-second runoff, the only clock stoppages that “count” are those actions that cause the clock to stop through play (emphasis added) not those for some administrative reason."

[Fatman325]

So now we need to close the loophole of not administering an accepted penalty by B in our game ending play. Perhaps changing the extension of periods language to extending when we have a foul and a 10 second runoff. Ignoring a B penalty and ending the game doesn't seem to make sense.

[Kalle]

"For the 10-second runoff, the only clock stoppages that “count” are those actions that cause the clock to stop through play (emphasis added) not those for some administrative reason."

OK, which of the stoppages are administrative and which are through play? And RR really wants the game to end on a team B foul that causes a team A injury?

[Fatman325]

Dunno Kalle. I guess we will wait to see. I would be curious to know what caused the new ARs. We wouldn't have done this last year.

[Morningrise]

We can put this one to bed, further confirmation from RR response to supervisor:

"For the 10-second runoff, the only clock stoppages that “count” are those actions that cause the clock to stop through play (emphasis added) not those for some administrative reason."

Hmm. Perhaps we are to think of penalty administration as akin to measurements.

Even though we quickly stop the clock when we see flags on the ground, there's nothing that says the stoppage occurs simultaneously with the end of the down by rule. The rule says the clock stops "to complete a penalty," but it doesn't actually say "the clock stops as soon as the ball becomes dead after a live-ball foul."

Instead, maybe we're stopping the clock (very shortly) AFTER the end of the down, just like we stop the clock for a measurement only after the dust settles.

And we already know measurements (like any stoppage that happens after the ball is already dead) don't affect injury/helmet runoffs. Maybe penalty administration is one of those stoppages. (Even though, in practice, we do kill the clock exactly when the down ends, if we noticed a flag.)

[dvasques]

even though because every foul stops the clock if we consider the pause to complete the penalty
the we would have a runoff on every foul inside the last minute of halves

[Johnponz]

Remember, the option for the run off is cancelled if the line to gain is reached for a first down (below is from RR's memo on the CFO page of Arbiter).

27. During a play in which B66’s helmet comes off, B28 goes down with an injury. The
ball carrier is tackled inbounds beyond the line to gain.
RULING: Both B66 and B28 must come out of the game.
 There is no option for the 10-second runoff because the first down stops the
clock.
 Team B may keep B66 in the game by being granted a team timeout.
 B28 must leave the game for at least one down and remain out until he is
cleared to return by his team’s medical personnel.
 Play clock: 40 seconds.
 Game clock starts on the referee’s signal.

[Morningrise]

We can put this one to bed, further confirmation from RR response to supervisor:

"For the 10-second runoff, the only clock stoppages that “count” are those actions that cause the clock to stop through play (emphasis added) not those for some administrative reason."

Here are the live-ball stoppages in 3-3-2-c through 3-3-2-e that, I'm pretty sure, preclude runoffs for injuries or helmets. (Runoffs for illegal passes work differently.)

Opponent's injury
Opponent's helmet off (no foul)
Team A first down
Team B will next snap the ball
Incomplete pass
Team A ball carrier out of bounds
Backward fumble out of bounds
Score or touchback
Kick down ends
Illegal kick

And it's authoritative that certain "administrative" stoppages do NOT preclude injury and helmet runoffs. So far, the only ones I'm certain of are:

Penalty administration
Any stoppage occurring after the ball is already dead

Here are the ones I'm not sure of though.

Forward fumble out of bounds
a) 1/10. A77 is injured. A33 fumbles while short of the line to gain. The fumble goes forward and out of bounds. (3-3-2-e-2) Runoff?

Opponent's helmet off due to foul
b) 1/10. A77 is injured. A66 face-masks B99 whose helmet comes off as a result. Ball carrier A33 is tackled short of the line to gain. (3-3-2-e-4, 3-3-2-e-16) Runoff?

Team B awarded a first down but will not next snap the ball
c) 4/10. A77 is injured. A11's pass is intercepted by B22 who is tackled in the field of play. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. (I think 3-3-2-e-4 is actually the only rule that makes the clock stop here) Runoff?
d) 4/10. A77 is injured. Ball carrier A33 is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. Runoff?

Inadvertent whistle
e) Ball carrier A33 is short of the line to gain when an inadvertent whistle occurs. (3-3-2-e-6) Runoff?

Other weird ones: Ball becomes illegal, official gets injured, official picks up live ball, what have you.

[Kalle]

Here are the ones I'm not sure of though.

Forward fumble out of bounds
a) 1/10. A77 is injured. A33 fumbles while short of the line to gain. The fumble goes forward and out of bounds. (3-3-2-e-2) Runoff?

Opponent's helmet off due to foul
b) 1/10. A77 is injured. A66 face-masks B99 whose helmet comes off as a result. Ball carrier A33 is tackled short of the line to gain. (3-3-2-e-4, 3-3-2-e-16) Runoff?

Team B awarded a first down but will not next snap the ball
c) 4/10. A77 is injured. A11's pass is intercepted by B22 who is tackled in the field of play. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. (I think 3-3-2-e-4 is actually the only rule that makes the clock stop here) Runoff?
d) 4/10. A77 is injured. Ball carrier A33 is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. Runoff?

Inadvertent whistle
e) Ball carrier A33 is short of the line to gain when an inadvertent whistle occurs. (3-3-2-e-6) Runoff?

Other weird ones: Ball becomes illegal, official gets injured, official picks up live ball, what have you.

Wild guesses on these:

Forward fumble: no runoff, clock stops through play.

Helmet off by a foul: runoff, the clock is basically stopped for the penalty.

Team B awarded a first down: no runoff, clock stops through play.

Inadvertent whistle: runoff, neither team is responsible for the clock stopping.

Weird ones: runoff, administrative.

[dvasques]

Helmet off by a foul: runoff, the clock is basically stopped for the penalty.

Don't know about this.
If you say the clock is basically stopped for the penalty then we have two reasons why the clock stopped, one for each team. Injury on A and penalty on B.

Shouldn't that be no runnoff?

[Kalle]

Don't know about this.
If you say the clock is basically stopped for the penalty then we have two reasons why the clock stopped, one for each team. Injury on A and penalty on B.

Shouldn't that be no runnoff?

My logic is that without the foul there would be no clock stoppage other than the injury. I also would not like to have team A to benefit by fouling.

[Bwest]

Here are the live-ball stoppages in 3-3-2-c through 3-3-2-e that, I'm pretty sure, preclude runoffs for injuries or helmets. (Runoffs for illegal passes work differently.)

Forward fumble out of bounds
a) 1/10. A77 is injured. A33 fumbles while short of the line to gain. The fumble goes forward and out of bounds. (3-3-2-e-2) Runoff?

Opponent's helmet off due to foul
b) 1/10. A77 is injured. A66 face-masks B99 whose helmet comes off as a result. Ball carrier A33 is tackled short of the line to gain. (3-3-2-e-4, 3-3-2-e-16) Runoff?

Team B awarded a first down but will not next snap the ball
c) 4/10. A77 is injured. A11's pass is intercepted by B22 who is tackled in the field of play. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. (I think 3-3-2-e-4 is actually the only rule that makes the clock stop here) Runoff?
d) 4/10. A77 is injured. Ball carrier A33 is tackled inbounds short of the line to gain. B99 was in the neutral zone at the snap. Runoff?

Inadvertent whistle
e) Ball carrier A33 is short of the line to gain when an inadvertent whistle occurs. (3-3-2-e-6) Runoff?

Other weird ones: Ball becomes illegal, official gets injured, official picks up live ball, what have you.

Taking the new AR's into consideration, I would say:

a) No runoff. Clock stops legally through play.
b) Runoff. New AR states that a live-ball foul by A does not save them from a runoff. B's helmet off is ignored due to foul causing it.
c) Runoff. To me, clock is not stopped because B is awarded a 1st down, but because there is a penalty. AR deals with this.
d) Runoff. Same as above.
e) No runoff. Inadvertent whistle rules apply.

[Morningrise]

Don't know about this.
If you say the clock is basically stopped for the penalty then we have two reasons why the clock stopped, one for each team. Injury on A and penalty on B.

Shouldn't that be no runnoff?

A lot of us thought that until recently. It turns out, the live-ball foul itself has no bearing on whether a runoff option exists - see plays 13 and 14 from the examples that spawned this whole thread. It's an administrative stoppage, not a football stoppage. Only football stoppages can stop injury/helmet runoffs. The question is what category an "innocent" helmet loss belongs to.

[dvasques]

My logic is that without the foul there would be no clock stoppage other than the injury. I also would not like to have team A to benefit by fouling.

right, sorry, I missed the fact that the helmet off was on B by A's foul... runnoff in this case for me too

[Morningrise]

Wondering if anyone else has any heart burn over plays 13 & 14.

Unable to copy/paste at the moment, but both involve helmets coming off, a live ball foul (OH in one, DOF in the other), and a run ending inbounds short of the LTG.

The rulings indicate zap 10 is on because the fouls did not cause the clock to stop.  However, why is the clocked stopped?  It's not just because a helmet came off, we have a flag on the ground to deal with.

Not sure how those two are supported by the rule the way it's currently written, which says we have a runoff situation when a helmet comes off is the ONLY reason the clock is stopped.

The two rulings in question have been changed as of today.

Flags on the field are once again treated exactly like any other stoppage cause, for purposes of preventing helmet/injury runoffs.

Note that, for illegal-pass runoffs, additional fouls do NOT prevent the runoff UNLESS they offset the illegal pass foul.