Author Topic: TASO Test 2015 (Read 48720 times)

ETXZebra · « **Reply #25 on:** August 07, 2015, 10:36:58 AM »

My thinking is that its false because of the exception.

Dead-Ball Fouls
ARTICLE 5. Penalties for dead-ball fouls are administered separately and
in order of occurrence (A.R. 10-1-5-I-III) [Exception: When dead-ball
unsportsmanlike or dead-ball personal fouls by both teams are reported to the
referee and none of the penalties have been completed, the yardage penalties
cancel and the number or type of down established before the fouls occurred
is unaffected. Any disqualified player must leave the game (Rules 5-2-6 and
10-2-2-a)].

copedaddy · « **Reply #26 on:** August 07, 2015, 07:24:57 PM »

But the question does not mention what type of fouls they are. Only dead ball PF and UNS are offset according to the exception. Why I said poor question.

BankerRef · « **Reply #27 on:** August 13, 2015, 05:55:49 PM »

Quote from: TXMike on July 30, 2015, 08:13:30 PM

Any questions you question?

How about this one:

4th & 4 at the A-45. Ball carrier A36 fumbles at the A-46 and the ball is subsequently recovered by B77 at the B-47. An inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is loose.

This was what is shown as the correct answer.
Team A may elect to repeat the down at the previous spot or Team A may elect to put the ball in play where possession was lost.

I want someone to explain how Team A is going to have an option to next put the ball in play where possession was lost. I realize that this is the applicable rule but that doesn't mean all elements are viable options. This was 4th down and possession was lost short of the line to gain. The way I see it the only option team A has is to replay at the previous spot otherwise they give the ball to B which they won't do.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #28 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:32:52 PM »

Why would A not have the option of replaying the down where possession was lost? Just because it was fourth down doesn't take away any of the options. What rules support would you use to deny them that option?

ETXZebra · « **Reply #29 on:** August 13, 2015, 06:42:22 PM »

They can take the ball at that spot OR repeat the down. By taking it short of the line to gain on 4th down it would be Team B's ball.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #30 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:02:32 PM »

The rule specifically says they can put the ball in play at that spot, not have possession there.

ETXZebra · « **Reply #31 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:16:45 PM »

Correct, but not replay the down.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #32 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:27:10 PM »

So which down will they play?

ETXZebra · « **Reply #33 on:** August 13, 2015, 07:59:22 PM »

I'm not arguing the answer to the question. I agree 100% with it that they have both options. I'm just saying why would they. They can choose either option but not both. If they take it at the spot where possession was lost and it was 4th down, and they are short of the line to gain, it would be Team B's ball just as any 4th down scrimmage down that failed to reach the line to gain. If they choose to replay the down you go back to the previous spot and replay.
It's like a untouched free kick out of bounds. They have 4 options. They can back them up 5 and rekick, take it at the inbounds spot, take it at inbounds spot plus five yards or take 30 yards from spot of the kick. If the ball goes out at the Team B 45 why wouldn't they take it at the 50, rather than at the 45 or the 30? The 4 options are still there but 2 of them would not be smart.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #34 on:** August 13, 2015, 08:08:58 PM »

So if Team A's coach says they want to put the ball in play at the spot of the fumble, what are you going to do? If I'm understanding your post correctly, you would give the ball to Team B. But that's not what the rule says. The rule says the fumbling team can put the ball in play at that spot. If you give Team B the ball, the fumbling team is no longer putting the ball in play. I'm not seeing how it being 4th down affects that.

BankerRef · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2015, 08:53:51 PM »

Quote from: Legacy Zebra on August 13, 2015, 07:27:10 PM

So which down will they play?

If it had been 3rd down and they wanted to put it in play where they lost possession what down would it be?

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2015, 09:15:10 PM »

I would say third.

ETXZebra · « **Reply #37 on:** August 13, 2015, 09:24:25 PM »

So you're saying that with inadvertent whistle they get a free down? The rule says they put the ball in play where possession was lost OR repeat the down. Not both. The whistle signals the end of the down.

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #38 on:** August 13, 2015, 09:47:28 PM »

So how do you reconcile that with the fact that if it happens on 4th down the rule says the fumbling team still gets to next put the ball in play?

ETXZebra · « **Reply #39 on:** August 14, 2015, 06:22:15 AM »

One or both of us are confused. The key here is that was a 4th down play and they didn't make the line to gain. It may be poorly worded, but it's just like the book says when a legal forward pass is incomplete, the ball belongs to the passing team at the previous spot. Not on a 4th down play!!

Legacy Zebra · « **Reply #40 on:** August 14, 2015, 08:29:53 AM »

This is one of those situations where words matter. After an incomplete forward pass, the ball BELONGS to the passing team at the previous spot. Rule 2-4-2 says:

"'Belongs to', as contrasted with 'in possession' denotes custody of a dead ball. Such custody may be temporary, because the ball must next be put in play in accordance with the rules governing the existing situation."

So even though the dead ball "belongs to" Team A after an incomplete legal forward pass, it is temporary because they failed to reach the line to gain and now Team B will next put the ball in play.

But the IW provision doesn't say the ball "belongs to" the fumbling team at the spot of the fumble. The rule specifically says the fumbling team can PUT THE BALL IN PLAY at the spot of the fumble. That is the difference between the two.

ETXZebra · « **Reply #41 on:** August 14, 2015, 12:29:00 PM »

Maybe this will help. Rule 2-27-1; Team A is the team that is designated to put the ball in play, and Team B is the opponent. The teams retain these designations until the ball is next ready for play.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #42 on:** August 14, 2015, 06:25:43 PM »

Regardless of how you read this, the only option is previous spot and replay the down. Team A doesn't get to keep the yardage and replay the down.

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DallasLJ · « **Reply #43 on:** August 14, 2015, 09:45:06 PM »

Can we use some common sense. Take the fumble out of the equation. On a typical run play, when there is an IW, Team A has the option to replay the down, or take the result of the play (where the ball was when the IW made the ball dead). Team A will evaluate the down and distance scenarios and make the decision that makes sense. The fumble in this Rule Question is basically the same. So, take the same question, and instead of 4th and 5, it is 4th and 15. The runner gains 13 yards when the fumble happens and then the IW occurs. Are you seriously going to say that Team A has the option to (1) replay 4th and 15 or (2) have it be 4th and 2 from the spot of the fumble.

That just does not make sense. How you you going to explain to the Coach for Team B that the Play didn't happen but Team A just advanced the ball 13 yards? Don't over read the rule.

So, the real result in this scenario, is that Team A has only 1 real option - to replay the down. Taking the ball where possession was lost and accepting the play -- leaves them short of the line to gain and results in Team B ball.

BankerRef · « **Reply #44 on:** August 15, 2015, 10:03:35 AM »

And that is exactly why I have a problem with the question or more specifically the answer that is deemed to be correct. If TASO wants us to just spout back the rule reference then so be it. But in practical application the only correct answer is that A can and will choose to replay the down.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #45 on:** August 15, 2015, 04:00:13 PM »

Quote from: BankerRef on August 15, 2015, 10:03:35 AM

And that is exactly why I have a problem with the question or more specifically the answer that is deemed to be correct. If TASO wants us to just spout back the rule reference then so be it. But in practical application the only correct answer is that A can and will choose to replay the down.

I agree it is a bad test question. Showed up twice on my test -- missed it both times because I am not giving Team B the ball.

ETXZebra · « **Reply #46 on:** August 15, 2015, 04:48:30 PM »

But there are options. We had a coach a few years ago wanted the ball at the inbounds spot on a free kick out of bounds, which was at the 23. I kept telling him he options, but it wouldn't listen. He got it at the 23.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #47 on:** August 15, 2015, 08:44:05 PM »

In the original play, you wouldn't even give team A an option. You'd just put it back at the previous spot and replay the down. Just like obvious penalty enforcements.

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Txgarza · « **Reply #48 on:** August 16, 2015, 05:40:19 PM »

4th and 5 from the A-46 yd line. During the scrimmage kick, A76 holds an oncoming rusher at the A44. Team B subsequently returns the kick to the A-37 yd line.

Can someone please help me with this question. Of the answers it was none of the above. And after looking in the rulebook it still didn't make sense to me. Thanks in advance.

ETXZebra · « **Reply #49 on:** August 16, 2015, 05:52:32 PM »

It going to be hard when we don't know what the possible answers were. Post the answer choices.