Clock Status?

[NCVAReferee]

K 4/10 @ K-40.  K only has 6 players on the line of scrimmage.  K13's punt is kicked downfield.  R88 signals for a fair catch at the R-10.  R88 muffs the kick and it rebounds high into the air.  R44 subsequently catches the muffed kick at R-4.  The play is blown dead. 

R accepts K's illegal formation penalty and the down is to be replayed K 4/15 @ K-35.  What is the status of the clock?

[Ralph Damren]

A new series was not established on a scrimmage kick down where the ball didn't go OOB or EZ and wasn't fair caught = RFP

[bigjohn]

Even if 3rd down was INC pass?

[NCVAReferee]

I agree with you Dameron.

[Ralph Damren]

Even if 3rd down was INC pass?

We would be replaying 4th down.

[VALJ]

What happened on 3rd down has nothing to do with anything when it comes to clock status.  What caused the play to end is what does.

The summary one of my colleagues came up with is that for NFHS code, if any of the following 10 things happen during a play, the clock will start on the snap or when a free kick is legally touched:

a - the ball goes out of bounds
b - B or R is awarded a new series
c - either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick
d - the ball becomes dead behind either goal line
e - a legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete
f - a request for a charged, or radio/TV, timeout is granted
g - a period ends
h - a team attempts to consume time illegally
i - the penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted
j - a fair catch is made

If, as in the OP, NONE of these items occur during a down, the clock will next start on the ready for play.

Since the player who caught the muffed ball was not the player who gave the signal, this isn't officially a fair catch (even though the down ends as soon as he completed the catch).  No major clock stopper means that we wind it up on the whistle.

[bigjohn]

just seems weird that if you are replaying the down that the down would not have the same clock status as the first time you had 4th down. but the clock ran during that down so I guess the clock is not replayed.
What if R44 advances the ball, is it DOG and now offsetting penalties?

[VALJ]

Those ten items are all taken almost verbatim from 3-4-3.  Did any of them occur on a given play?  If so, start on the snap. If not, start on the ready.

Since 3-4-3 says that "the clock shall start with the snap... if the clock was stopped because:" (emphasis added by me) and the DOG isn't the reason that the clock stopped - we'd still wind it up.

[Bwest]

just seems weird that if you are replaying the down that the down would not have the same clock status as the first time you had 4th down. but the clock ran during that down so I guess the clock is not replayed.
What if R44 advances the ball, is it DOG and now offsetting penalties?

DOG is always a dead ball foul, and thus will not offset anything.

[bigjohn]

3-4-4 does not list a fair catch by other as a reason to stop the clock but 6-5-3 says the ball becomes dead, just like a fair catch but it is not. This is very confusing.

It says the receiver is not afforded protection but the ball is dead. So if K hits him after he catches it it is late hit??  This is messy!

[Atlanta Blue]

3-4-4 does not list a fair catch by other as a reason to stop the clock but 6-5-3 says the ball becomes dead, just like a fair catch but it is not. This is very confusing.

It says the receiver is not afforded protection but the ball is dead. So if K hits him after he catches it it is late hit??  This is messy!

A fair catch is NOT a major clock stopper.  Awarding a new series after a legal kick is. Usually, the fair catch leads to a new series.  But if the fair catch is wiped out by penalty, it wasn't a major clock stopper.  The play ended with the ball inbounds, so the clock will start on the RFP.

As for can the player not making the fair catch get hit?  The ball is dead as soon as it is POSSESSED.  But we all know, defenders can't stop instantaneously.  R44 getting hit would only be a foul if the action raised to the level of a personal foul.

[bigjohn]

So DOG would be walked after the IF penalty?  DOG does stop the clock though, right?

[pjsaul]

A fair catch is NOT a major clock stopper.

3-4-3-j? 

[VALJ]

So DOG would be walked after the IF penalty?  DOG does stop the clock though, right?

3-4-3 says that "the clock shall start with the snap... if the clock was stopped because:" (emphasis added by me).  Since the clock was already stopped when the DOG happened - because of the catch after the fair catch signal - the DOG isn't what stopped the clock.  Wind it up.

3-4-3-i is to prevent a team from running off 25 seconds, taking a delay foul, and then running off 25 more seconds after the ready.

From the casebook - 3.4.2 SITUATION D: K11 punts the ball from a fourth and 10 situation. R1 catches the kick and returns 10 yards.  During the down, but prior to the catch, K3 holds R2. R2 accepts the penalty. RULING: After enforcement, the clock starts on the ready-for-play signal.

[VALJ]

A fair catch is NOT a major clock stopper. 

3-4-3-j begs to differ.

However, in the OP, if Speedy gives the fair catch signal, but Slick is the one who actually catches the ball, we don't have a fair catch per 6-5-3.  Wind it up.

[Atlanta Blue]

3-4-3-j? 

Yes, it is, I blew that one.  Sorry!

[Ralph Damren]

So DOG would be walked after the IF penalty?  DOG does stop the clock though, right?

After the DOG the clock would start on the snap.

[VALJ]

Even a dead ball DOG like that one, Ralph?  Since 3-4-3 says the clock starts with the snap if the clock is stopped because of a DOG, but the clock is already stopped for the end of the play, I was interpreting that as a start on the ready.

[Ralph Damren]

Even a dead ball DOG like that one, Ralph?  Since 3-4-3 says the clock starts with the snap if the clock is stopped because of a DOG, but the clock is already stopped for the end of the play, I was interpreting that as a start on the ready.

IMHO,an accepted DOG penalty dictates that the clock will start on the snap. Consider : (1) A gains a new series w/no OOB; (2) clock stopped, chains set; (3a) A snapped ball prior to RFP while Ump has last bite of  ; (3b) RFP sounded, clock cranked, A runs play clock beyond 0;25. In both 3a and 3b clock would start on snap. Remember, too, that failure to wear proper equipment PRIOR to the snap is also in the DOG family. The referee can always override this rule under 3-4-6, if he deems necessary.

[VALJ]

And I recognize that all DOG fouls are dead ball - didn't quite use the terminology right.  Should have said "even a DOG committed when the clock is already stopped?"

[Ralph Damren]

And I recognize that all DOG fouls are dead ball - didn't quite use the terminology right.  Should have said "even a DOG committed when the clock is already stopped?"

The rationale of starting the clock on all DOG penalties is that the creation of a new 25 seconds for the fouling team shouldn't occur while the clock is running. Removing 3-4-3i has been on the docket several times with the belief that most DOG fouls occur when there is no timing advantage to be gained (middle of a period,etc) and rely of ref to use 3-4-6 when necessary. This change never made it to the floor...for fear that referees wouldn't be able to decide when to apply 3-4-6 .