Author Topic: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)  (Read 25404 times)

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Offline mogul84

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Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« on: September 12, 2015, 10:29:09 PM »
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Another-referee-shoved-in-high-school-game-6501299.php

On the play, Cardenas fielded a low snap during a drive that started with 7:14 left in the third quarter. Cardenas retrieved the ball behind him ran to his left and was sacked on the play.

As Cardenas came to his feet, video appears to show the quarterback shoving a Hyde Park player, which caused one official to throw a penalty flag.

Cardenas originally walked before an official approached him. As the two came closer, the official threw another penalty before Cardenas shoved him.
Members of the St. Anthony team immediately restrained Cardenas.

Another incident, this time involving the white hat ?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2015, 10:35:14 PM by mogul84 »

Offline TxSkyBolt

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Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2015, 08:54:30 AM »
It was the L that got shoved. Was there something else that happened involving the white hat?


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Offline TexDoc

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 09:07:16 AM »
This has to stop.  Now!

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 10:10:59 AM »
You are correct Doc, but how?  It appears we as officials will have to make our own bold statement. I don't think any of us want the Friday night lights to go out because of us, but there are other ways.  But we would have to stick together for our statement to be recognized.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 12:30:51 PM »
I'm serious here.

What if on Friday night about 10:30, the UIL Incident Reporting Website had about 1500 incidents reported by us.  What if every time a coach raises his voice at us or a player taunts another player or disrespects an official, it is reported to the UIL?

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 12:51:21 PM »
I'm serious here.

What if on Friday night about 10:30, the UIL Incident Reporting Website had about 1500 incidents reported by us.  What if every time a coach raises his voice at us or a player taunts another player or disrespects an official, it is reported to the UIL?
I see your point, but as we've discussed before we never hear from these incident reports.  I was thinking more of statement all players, coaches and fans would hear.  Maybe showing up as usual on Friday night and come 7:30 we don't come out on the field.  We all wait until 8:00 to start the game.  It's not a verbal statement but none the less a statement.

Offline copedaddy

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 02:44:15 PM »
It still comes down to coaches. In Texas we only use NCAA rules for football. These rules are not written for high school, they are written for college. A whole different ball game. I am sure everyone on this site have been told "that's a chicken sh#t call." We hear it all the time and so do the players. But nothing happens because of what I call the "sacred cow syndrome." What would happen to a basketball coach, soccer or baseball coach when he stands up and shouts that same statement. He or she is given a penalty of some type. And then a second time, they are sent packing. Period. Officials have become so afraid to flag coaches due to the fact they pick their crews. That doesn't happen in other sports because coaches are not allowed to pick.
Until we-- officials, TASO and UIL--hold football coaches accountable for their actions, this will only get worse. Coaches should conduct themselves just as they do in other sports, and accept the consequences when they do not. Until do not expect things to really get any better.
On a side note, this is also a reason it is hard to keep young officials.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 03:57:23 PM »
It still comes down to coaches. In Texas we only use NCAA rules for football. These rules are not written for high school, they are written for college. A whole different ball game. I am sure everyone on this site have been told "that's a chicken sh#t call." We hear it all the time and so do the players. But nothing happens because of what I call the "sacred cow syndrome." What would happen to a basketball coach, soccer or baseball coach when he stands up and shouts that same statement. He or she is given a penalty of some type. And then a second time, they are sent packing. Period. Officials have become so afraid to flag coaches due to the fact they pick their crews. That doesn't happen in other sports because coaches are not allowed to pick.
Until we-- officials, TASO and UIL--hold football coaches accountable for their actions, this will only get worse. Coaches should conduct themselves just as they do in other sports, and accept the consequences when they do not. Until do not expect things to really get any better.
On a side note, this is also a reason it is hard to keep young officials.
I'm not sure your point matches your explanation.  The rules regarding decorum are essentially the same.  NCAA or NFHS doesn't really matter.  Your contention that the foxes are in charge of the hen house is exactly on point.  In what other place does the defendant pick the judge or officer that arrests him.  I can't fathom how we ever progressed to the point of coaches drafting officials.  It is a system that is wrought with the potential for corruption and lack of accountability.  It's a joke and the leadership does nothing but perpetuate it.

Offline TXHSHL

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 06:31:30 PM »
Stop the game. Call the local police over. Cuff the kid in front of everybody. It will send the right message.

Offline TXPanhandle

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 07:36:11 PM »
I cannot help but question if more action last week could have been accomplished if everyone would have got the message. The longer it drags on the more I start to believe there will be no legal action.

Offline TxBJ

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Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2015, 07:39:36 PM »
It has to "drag on" due to due process. As long as they get it right in the end.

I would like TASO (with endorsement of the UIL of possible) to send communication that any assault must be handled as described above: law enforcement escorting the offender off the field. That video would do a lot more good than the video of the assault itself.

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2015, 07:52:46 PM »
It has to "drag on" due to due process. As long as they get it right in the end.

I would like TASO (with endorsement of the UIL of possible) to send communication that any assault must be handled as described above: law enforcement escorting the offender off the field. That video would do a lot more good than the video of the assault itself.
  We all need to slow down and let the legal process take its course on the assault issue.  While I think, and hope, that these two players get charged --- everyone should slow down on this idea that a player is going to be "arrested" at the game for an assault.  Unless an officer actually witnesses the attack, you can stop the game, ask for a police officer -- but the overwhelming likelihood that no one is getting hand cuffed and going to jail.  Instead, a complaint will get filed and submitted to the DA.  I will let my LEO officials confirm that this is the case -- but most assaults are misdemeanor charges -- and there will not be an arrest for an attack that occurs outside the presence of the officer.

  And while I appreciate the concern by all on this Board, and I also agree that Coaches have a major influence on the behavior of the kids, this is my 24th year and I have never had a major issue with an Head Coach on a Friday night.  Have there been disagreements, of course, but never anything that got personal that came close to needing to flag a coach in at least the last 15 years.  I think both of these recent incidents have more to do with the demeanor of these three players and the general lack of respect for authority that exists in our society -- particularly the last 6 -7 years.

  Just my humble opinion. 

Offline JasonTX

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2015, 08:15:27 PM »
  We all need to slow down and let the legal process take its course on the assault issue.  While I think, and hope, that these two players get charged --- everyone should slow down on this idea that a player is going to be "arrested" at the game for an assault.  Unless an officer actually witnesses the attack, you can stop the game, ask for a police officer -- but the overwhelming likelihood that no one is getting hand cuffed and going to jail.  Instead, a complaint will get filed and submitted to the DA.  I will let my LEO officials confirm that this is the case -- but most assaults are misdemeanor charges -- and there will not be an arrest for an attack that occurs outside the presence of the officer.

  And while I appreciate the concern by all on this Board, and I also agree that Coaches have a major influence on the behavior of the kids, this is my 24th year and I have never had a major issue with an Head Coach on a Friday night.  Have there been disagreements, of course, but never anything that got personal that came close to needing to flag a coach in at least the last 15 years.  I think both of these recent incidents have more to do with the demeanor of these three players and the general lack of respect for authority that exists in our society -- particularly the last 6 -7 years.

  Just my humble opinion.

My Umpire is a DA.  I think things may be different if we have a situation like that.  I will go right to him to file the complaint.  :)

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2015, 08:26:05 PM »
Oh, I am filing a complaint.  And I want the player to get actual jail time -- not just a probated sentence.  But, that is part of the due process system.  There is no justice on the spot.  Let us all just slow down and let the process play itself out.  If charges are not filed by the DA, then I think we all can and should be upset -- and then talk about some sort of protest.  But in our 24/7 news cycle -- we all want instant justice -- and it just does not work that way.

Offline blindref757

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2015, 09:28:07 PM »
I don't expect instant justice, but I did expect a strong response from TASO and the UIL.  I see no problem in us standing up for our avocation by making a symbolic statement to bring awareness to this.  The fact that the UIL board took no action and actually questioned the ability and/or integrity of the official who was assaulted is upsetting.  The fact that it happened again is upsetting.  I think it's ok to be upset.

Offline ETXZebra

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2015, 09:33:15 PM »
I don't expect instant justice, but I did expect a strong response from TASO and the UIL.  I see no problem in us standing up for our avocation by making a symbolic statement to bring awareness to this.  The fact that the UIL board took no action and actually questioned the ability and/or integrity of the official who was assaulted is upsetting.  The fact that it happened again is upsetting.  I think it's ok to be upset.
:thumbup :thumbup :thumbup

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2015, 11:13:24 PM »
Guys, always remember we don't have to be there.  If we ever feel unsafe or threatened, just leave.  No one can ever question you about your right to feel safe and without threat of injury from aggression.  We don't get paid high risk pay.  If coaches and administrators cannot control the situation to your satisfaction, get the hell out of there. The game will always be secondary to your personal safety.   Get off of the field and tell administration the game is suspended until your safety is ensured.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2015, 08:27:21 AM »
Video here:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/video-san-antonio-high-school-football-player-shoves-referee/

Not sure why the R was so slow to get to the original flareup.

Offline centexsports

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2015, 11:29:28 AM »
A couple of things:
1) As an official that takes a blood thinner, the hit by the two Jay players could kill a person.    I take the risk of being on the field but not to be intentionally blind sided and speared.   
2) The problem is at the administrative level.   Players mimic their coaches or act out to the degree the coaches let them.   The coaches act out and act a fool to the degree that the administration allows them.   When the coaches are brought under control by the district administrators then the problem will be much more manageable.   
3) NFHS rules are written for 4 and 5 man crews.   NCAA rules are written for 7 and 8 man crews.   It is almost impossible for 5 man crews to officiate the intricate nuances that an 8 man crew can.   I am OK with NCAA rules but mandate 7 man crews at least at the 3a level and above (I know there are not enough officials but that becomes our problem).
4) TASO needs to step up and force (to the extent they can) the UIL and Supt to take responsibility for this problem.
5) If this is social media and I was outside of TASO guidelines, they can have my card and I will listen to games on the radio.   My biggest thrill as an official is standing at midfield with my crew while the stadium is on their feet and the National Anthem is being played.   I get chill bumps EVERY TIME.   I will miss this the most but not the abuse of the coaches.

Offline mobetta285

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2015, 12:38:42 PM »
I am appalled that this has happened again. I agree with Doc, this must stop. That being said, the teams that my crew worked Friday night were respectful to us. As a U, I am used to safety's running into me as they pursue the ball. In 24 years I have only questioned 1 incident in which I was blind-sided, but never got the film to either confirm or deny. Friday night I had a safety brush past me and apologize (as has always been the case for me). I strongly believe that building a rapport with these young men goes a long way to have the respect you deserve on the field. But if you are not shown the respect that is deserved, then  ^flag them and move on. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. There are a number of great kids playing this game that we all love.

My $.02

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2015, 12:06:18 PM »
The "Good Ole Boy network" needs to stop. Stop allowing coaches to dictate who will and who will not officiate their game. In Florida we had three Associations around us plus a forth trying to start. We were constantly asked to take teams to the south and north because of schools dictating who would officiate. We finally geared up enough qualified officials to take the three south and two north schools.

First game north, We have a TD by the visitor, on the try the kick is blocked with a second player hitting the holder and kicker, flag. Home Coach goes ballistic on my sideline, I kept him at bay until the White Hat arrived, the man refused to listen to the rule and the reason for the flag. Kept poking the white hat in the chest until I stepped in and calmed him down. The game ended in a 87-7 drubbing of the visitor. No reason to carry on. We are in the locker room when the doors burst open and the Head Coach comes in screaming about our call WHY? He rants then leaves yelling that we will be black listed, never officiate there again yadayadayada ..... Monday night, Booking Commissioner tells us about the phone call from the coach, coach threatened him on the phone too. I said there's one way to handle this, pull the schedule out and let's take a look, white hat starts laughing .... "There it is, four weeks from now, Home game, get the White hat for that game ....He arrived we explain the situation "We want to give you a better game and we want that game!" Then told the Commissioner ....call FHSAA and let them know what happened. FHSAA agrees with our decision and doesn't bother to tell us about their next move.

Game night arrives, there we are .... I am on the sideline going through my routine Head Coach says "Why are you guys here? I black listed you!" "Coach, we've been assigned this game, we'll officiate and you coach that's the best way for this to go smoothly" Home wins by 15. Coach comes over and shakes my hand. "I got a visit from the FHSAA Representative, we watched the film together, he explained that the call was a great call and that the crew had demonstrated a lot of restraint in not ejecting the Head Coach during the tirade. He also explained that Association had informed them about the locker room incident and the threats against the Booking Commissioner. Then the Rep said something I never expected. He said that the crew had requested a change in the schedule and that no fines or penalties be issued against the coach for his antics. The crew asked that another display of professionalism of the highest order be allowed in another home game in defiance of their own Association rules regarding home games with a school. Guys, once again you worked an excellent game. I apologize for my actions and will be sending a letter asking for your acceptance of my apology to the entire Association, a copy will be sent to the state as well." We allow a crew to see a school twice in a season, one home and one away no closer than three weeks apart. The schedule is selected using a lottery system and an entire night is used to select the games.

I don't care if Professional Football Rules are used. There is a decorum on the field. Coaches discipline and control their players, officials provide for the safety of all participants in accordance to the rule book. That means bringing an out of control coach to his knees if necessary. In 20 years I have ejected one youth coach. Never a high school, NCAA Modified or Semi Pro Coach. My sideline knows when I walk on the field who is in charge and as stated to my daughter early in life .... this is a dictatorship and you will have rights when I give you rights. TASO needs to clean up their act, Associations need to clean up their act and coaches need to clean their act up as well. Otherwise the next one will be the killing of an Official not a blindside block and spear and not a push. This is the last version of discipline existing and that's on an athletic field. It's time for all parties involved to step it up and quit finger pointing. 

Offline DallasLJ

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2015, 02:15:38 PM »
I does everyone assume that the coaches picked the crews for both of these games.  Both games involved schools from different chapters and as a general rule coaches from visiting school from out of chapter have no say in officiating crews.  Both attacks were by visiting teams.  So, while I am open to someone involved in the actual assignment of these specific games from correcting me -- I can state with a reasonable degree of probability (particularly from those that are out of state) -- that these crews were not selected by the offending team, and since there were out of their regular area for the particular crews, the officials assigned to the game would have no incentive to not call the game the "right way" without concern about getting picked the next year.

HAshleyTX

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2015, 02:18:35 PM »
  We all need to slow down and let the legal process take its course on the assault issue. 

I'm not so much concerned with the length of time for the "legal" proceedings associated with formal charges.  What I want to happen quickly and definitively is that those two "individuals" be kicked off of ALL teams in the school and banned from participating in ANY UIL contest for the remainder of their High School lives.  This is a slam dunk..."suspending" them isn't good enough, it leaves the impression that they are out UNLESS something else comes up.  Regardless of whether there were racial comments, regardless of whether a coach put them up to this, they made their choice and it's time for them to disappear from high school sports permanently!

Offline yarnnelg

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2015, 02:43:11 PM »
Hey Dallas,

If I misread some of the concerns that crews were reluctant in penalizing Coaches because they would be black listed by those coaches then forgive me.

I do believe that some of the complaints involve no support and crews that would "not be invited back" to a school because of some type of arm twisting the coaches have.

My attitude is as I tried to explain if a bit lengthy. Get the support necessary and change the culture if it does exist. The coaches coach, they don't declare who is acceptable and who isn't.

Offline TexDoc

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Re: Another incident (Open season on officials ?)
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2015, 06:30:03 PM »
I does everyone assume that the coaches picked the crews for both of these games.  Both games involved schools from different chapters and as a general rule coaches from visiting school from out of chapter have no say in officiating crews.  Both attacks were by visiting teams.  So, while I am open to someone involved in the actual assignment of these specific games from correcting me -- I can state with a reasonable degree of probability (particularly from those that are out of state) -- that these crews were not selected by the offending team, and since there were out of their regular area for the particular crews, the officials assigned to the game would have no incentive to not call the game the "right way" without concern about getting picked the next year.

DallasLJ, St Anthony was the home team and a San Antonio team.   The crew was picked.  I don't think there is a single official here that's much concerned about being scratched by any private school.