Un-Authorized Conferences and Illegally on Field

[FroggyRef]

9-8-1f  -  Holding an unauthorized conference.
Who gets the UNS for this? The HC or the specific violator?   Redding's example 7-20 has one situation where during a timeout, the HC goes to the huddle inside the hashmarks for 30 seconds then an assistant coach goes out for the remaining 30 seconds.  Redding's says the assistant is assessed the UNS ... ok fair enough.
  But how about if the HC is out between the hashmarks with 8 players and an assistant is on the field directly in front of the team box with the other 3 ... who gets it there?  How about if 2 assistant coaches go out to the huddle inside the hashmarks?
    Granted, I've never seen it ... and probably would break up the illegal conference instead of flagging it.  However, if I had to flag someone, who would it be?

9-8-1i  -  Being on the field except as a substitute or replaced player.
Specifically, a Coach, Trainer or Attendant on the field during a LIVE ball and does NOT Participate.  Who gets the UNS? The HC or the specific violator?   9.8.1 Sit F only discusses the violations made by the HC.

9-8-2  -  Coach, Trainer or Attendant illegally on the field during an official's timeout (and others).  Say an attendant goes to the huddle (unauthorized by the Referee) with water during a dead-ball period while we're waiting on the chains to move for a first down or while administering a penalty  ... and it's the 2nd infraction of this type.  Who gets the UNS?  The HC or the specific violator.  Couldn't find any case references for this one.

[ncwingman]

I think the answer is "yes".

The specific violator would get the foul, but UNS fouls on assistant coaches or team attendants also get charged to the head coach.

That being said... if you actually throw a flag for any of that, there better be a damn good reason why.

[yarnnelg]

Control your sideline better.

Injury timeout at goal line. I stand about 15-20 yard line. Coach walking past me "Where you headed coach?" "To talk to my players, they're talking to theirs" "they are working on an injured player. I see an Umpire and Head Linesman between the injured and the Offense, no conversations there, now please return to your sideline or, I'll be more than happy to give you a timeout after the injured player leaves the field."

Just police it properly and there won't be rotating coaches, 45 on the field ...preventive Officiating. Saves a lot of head aches.

[Jim D]

Remember that the team can always go over to the sideline and talk to the coach - injury time out, charged time out and even during a live ball. 

During an injury time out I just tell the other coach to stay off the field, but have the team come over to him.

[wvoref]

Remember that the team can always go over to the sideline and talk to the coach - injury time out, charged time out and even during a live ball. 

During an injury time out I just tell the other coach to stay off the field, but have the team come over to him.

Pretty much what we always do in our area.  If its obvious injured player isn't popping right back up we tell both teams to go get water.  That way team with injured player can discuss changes being made and opponent doesn't feel other team is gaining an advantage.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, allowing the teams to remain in their respective huddles during an injury can open the "barn door" (ole' Mainer saying) for events to occur and none are good. Send both teams to the sidelines (outside the 9's) and allow coaches to join them. IMHO, the head coach of the injured player usually will be at the player's side. If it's a visiting player, often the home coach will approach and advise what healthcare professionals and equipment  are available. IMHO, if a concerned parent comes out, quietly remind the injured player's coach that the parent is his responsibility. Case 3.5.8B offers support to keeping teams to their sidelines.

[Curious]

I think the answer is "yes".

The specific violator would get the foul, but UNS fouls on assistant coaches or team attendants also get charged to the head coach.

That being said... if you actually throw a flag for any of that, there better be a DARN good reason why.

Rule reference please...9-8 (PENALTY) indicates only being on time and equipment violations are charged to the HC; and, further, it reads "a second UNS foul with a 15 yd penalty results in DQ. A DQ'd MEMBER OF THE COACHING STAFF shall be removed".....NOT the HC (my emphasis).  I've looked, but can't find a case book play to validate a HC being removed for UNS against assistant coaches.  Am I missing something? 

[HLinNC]

I agree Curious, I've had too many old time WH's says that goes to the HC.  The only two USC's that I recall applied to the head coach are illegal equipment violations and the 15 yard penalty restricted area infraction.  Anybody else earns their own.  They aren't bench technicals.

[Rulesman]

Although not specifically permissible by rule, it's possible that the practice of non-player fouls also being charged to a head coach may be a state adoption. Example: nowhere in the rule book does it state an individual who is ejected for 2 UNS must also sit out the next game, yet we all know that to be the case in some places. And I know of at least one state where you get kicked out of 2 games in a season gives you the rest of the season off. Where is that in the rule book?

[FLAHL]

What about unintentional contact with an official in the restricted area while the ball is live? 9-4-8.  The book says Unintentional contact with a game official in the restricted area – (S38-29), Nonplayer foul. For the first offense, 15 yards from the succeeding spot. For the second offense (S38-29-47) – 15 yards from the succeeding spot and disqualification of the head coach.

This sounds like the head coach gets ejected for a 2nd offense no matter who contacts the official on the sideline.  Is that right?

[ncwingman]

I could be conflating a few rules there then, and I don't have my rule book at hand to check.

Although, this brings up another point -- hypothetical situation -- I'm on the sideline, and some assistant coach doesn't like a call and says "You m**f**er refs are blowing the game!"... from behind me, while my focus is on the field. I have no idea who actually said it, but it was loud and clear enough that there's no dispute what was said and I need to  .

Who gets charged with the USC?

Similarly, I had a discussion recently about the sideline interference foul (with contact), which gets charged to the head coach. If the head coach goes on a verbal rampage later in the game, and earns a USC, is that his second? I think we agreed that it would be, since the first is (and is signaled as) USC as well.

[FLAHL]

The foul for unintentional contact with an official on the sideline is a foul for Illegal Personal Contact and should not be combined with a foul for USC and result in an ejection.  But two Illegal Personal Contact fouls do result in the ejection of the head coach if I'm interpreting the rule correctly.

[Curious]

What about unintentional contact with an official in the restricted area while the ball is live? 9-4-8.  The book says Unintentional contact with a game official in the restricted area – (S38-29), Nonplayer foul. For the first offense, 15 yards from the succeeding spot. For the second offense (S38-29-47) – 15 yards from the succeeding spot and disqualification of the head coach.

This sounds like the head coach gets ejected for a 2nd offense no matter who contacts the official on the sideline.  Is that right?

It would appear to be correct. I was looking at the non-contact situation which is, by rule, different.  While "contact" is certainly worthy of more scrutiny and/or "punishment", a DQ for the HC seems a little excessive to me - unless, of course, it was him who made "contact".

I could be conflating a few rules there then, and I don't have my rule book at hand to check.

Although, this brings up another point -- hypothetical situation -- I'm on the sideline, and some assistant coach doesn't like a call and says "You m**f**er refs are blowing the game!"... from behind me, while my focus is on the field. I have no idea who actually said it, but it was loud and clear enough that there's no dispute what was said and I need to  .

Who gets charged with the USC?

IMHO, I don't see where we can blindly assess a UNS foul to the HC if we don't know who said it; but, I think I would provide him the courtesy of a warning that if I heard anything like that again, I would hold him responsible and consider it flagrant.

Similarly, I had a discussion recently about the sideline interference foul (with contact), which gets charged to the head coach. If the head coach goes on a verbal rampage later in the game, and earns a USC, is that his second? I think we agreed that it would be, since the first is (and is signaled as) USC as well.

Seems like you would be supported by rule to toss the HC in this situation.

[bama_stripes]

The foul for unintentional contact with an official on the sideline is a foul for Illegal Personal Contact and should not be combined with a foul for USC and result in an ejection.  But two Illegal Personal Contact fouls do result in the ejection of the head coach if I'm interpreting the rule correctly.

Correct.  You don't combine an IPC with a "garden-variety" USC to eject the head coach.  He must get two IPCs or two USCs to get the boot.

[Curious]

Correct.  You don't combine an IPC with a "garden-variety" USC to eject the head coach.  He must get two IPCs or two USCs to get the boot.

Ralph/Rulesman, do you concur with 'Bama on this?  No offense 'Bama

[FroggyRef]

Ralph/Rulesman, do you concur with 'Bama on this?  No offense 'Bama

This is correct.  9.8.1 Sit D addresses this.   Ruling:  "The first foul is for illegal personal contact and the second foul is for unsportsmanlike conduct.  The penalties are not combined to force the ejection of the head coach."
Additionally, for the illegal personal contact in the restricted area, it does not matter if the official runs into the head coach, an assistant coach, a trainer, statistician, replaced player or sub ... it could be any non-player ... the first occurrence is a 15-yd non-player foul (succeeding spot) and the second occurrence is a 15-yd non-player foul (succeeding spot) and disqualification of the head coach.

[FroggyRef]

Now ...
How about the original 3 questions on this thread?

The reason I asked those 3 questions is because I'm writing a sideline management reference for my association.  In addition to the management and "Preventive Officiating" techniques, I'm also including the correct fouls and corresponding penalties for non-compliance.  I need to make sure this info is correct.  I have confirmed 5 of the eight fouls/penalties ... the last three seem a bit unclear.  I've torn apart the rule book, case book, handbook and Reddings trying to nail the answers down.  And it seems from some of the responses that I'm not the only one who is perplexed at the last three.
Here are the eight situations I've broken it down to:
1.  Non-player being outside of the teambox (not on field) during a LIVE ball - no contact - (I have this one)
2.  More than 3 coaches in the box or non-coaches in the box during deadball period - (I have this one)
3.  Coach, trainer or attendant illegally on field during LIVE ball (does not participate) OR the same being on the field during a dead ball period.  Need help here, see OP 9-8-1i
4.  Sub or replaced player on the field during LIVE ball (does not participate)  - (I have this one)
5.  Non-player on or off the field participates, hinders opponent or influences play - (I have this one)
6.  Non-player, coach, trainer, attendant illegally on field during a timeout. Need help here, see OP 9-8-2.
7.  Holding an unauthorized conference.  Need help here, see OP 9-8-1f.
8.  Unintentional contact between an official and non-player in the restricted area during LIVE ball - (I have this one)

[Rulesman]

Ralph/Rulesman, do you concur with 'Bama on this?  No offense 'Bama

yes

[Jim D]

Now ...
How about the original 3 questions on this thread?

The reason I asked those 3 questions is because I'm writing a sideline management reference for my association.  In addition to the management and "Preventive Officiating" techniques, I'm also including the correct fouls and corresponding penalties for non-compliance.  I need to make sure this info is correct.  I have confirmed 5 of the eight fouls/penalties ... the last three seem a bit unclear.  I've torn apart the rule book, case book, handbook and Reddings trying to nail the answers down.  And it seems from some of the responses that I'm not the only one who is perplexed at the last three.
Here are the eight situations I've broken it down to:
1.  Non-player being outside of the teambox (not on field) during a LIVE ball - no contact - (I have this one)
2.  More than 3 coaches in the box or non-coaches in the box during deadball period - (I have this one)
3.  Coach, trainer or attendant illegally on field during LIVE ball (does not participate) OR the same being on the field during a dead ball period.  Need help here, see OP 9-8-1i
4.  Sub or replaced player on the field during LIVE ball (does not participate)  - (I have this one)
5.  Non-player on or off the field participates, hinders opponent or influences play - (I have this one)
6.  Non-player, coach, trainer, attendant illegally on field during a timeout. Need help here, see OP 9-8-2.
7.  Holding an unauthorized conference.  Need help here, see OP 9-8-1f.
8.  Unintentional contact between an official and non-player in the restricted area during LIVE ball - (I have this one)

This is a tough post to answer because almost all of this is handled unofficially by just telling the coach/attendant/non-player to stop doing what they are doing.  The sideline management guide should spell out what they can do.  If they are trying something else - tell them to knock it off.  There would almost never be a case to throw a flag for trying to hold an unauthorized conference.

[bama_stripes]

Agree.

These rules, like many others across NFHS sports, are there for the rare instance when you run into Mr. Hard-Azz who just absolutely won't listen to reason.

[ECILLJ]

some assistant coach doesn't like a call and says "You m**f**er refs are blowing the game!"... from behind me,
Who gets charged with the USC?

If I heard this directed towards me or my crew (my hearing is not great), someone is getting a flag.  If I cannot identify the perpetrator then 'to bad so sad'  , the HC is going to receive the unsportsmanlike penalty. Ultimately, he has responsibility  for his staff and players on the sideline.

Fortunately  , I have never heard the MF phrase directed towards us by a coaching staff and I have never had to penalize a coach for the conduct of his assistant. (knock on wood)

Storms forecasted tonight in the heartland. Hopefully the weathermen are wrong.