foul in the end zone penalty enforcement?

[fitz13]

team A free kicks into the end zone. team B catches it and fouls in the end zone before the ball has left the end zone.

1. safety because the foul happened in the end zone
2. touchback and mark the penalty off from the 25.

please post the rule if you know it. i can't seem to find it.

[Welpe]

Assuming the foul happened after the kick has ended, the penalty is a safety.

8-5-1:

It is a safety when:

b. An accepted penalty for a foul leaves the ball on or behind the offending
team’s goal line (Exception: Rules 3-1-3-g-3 and 8-3-4-a)

[fitz13]

so this does not apply?

ARTICLE 1. It is a touchback when:
a. The ball becomes dead out of bounds behind a goal line, except from an incomplete forward pass, or becomes dead in the possession of a player on, above or behind his own goal line and the attacking team is responsible for the ball being there (Rules 7-2-4-c) (A.R. 7-2-4-I, A.R. 8-6-1-I-III).
b. A kick becomes dead by rule behind the defending team’s goal line and the attacking team is responsible for the ball being there (Exception: Rule 8-4- 2-b) (A.R. 6-3-4-III).

[Welpe]

If the ball is dead in the endzone, the touchback is the result of the play. But a foul by the offense in their end zone will be penalized as a safety and that supersedes the result of the play.

[fitz13]

can you show me where it says says a penalty supersedes an touch back?

i see both sides of this argument but am looking for wording in the book that clarifies it.



 

[Kalle]

I'm assuming the team B foul is a basic spot foul (as most of the potential candidates are). During a run the basic spot is the end of the related run. This is in the end zone and as team A was responsible for the ball being dead there, it is a touchback and the real basic spot is B-25.

However, fouls are penalized according to the 3-and-1 principle and here we do have the "one", ie. team in possession fouling behind the basic spot. The penalty is enforced from the end zone resulting the ball being left in the end zone by penalty, resulting in a safety (8-5-1-b).

See A.R. 8-5-1-III which is more or less exactly the play situation you are describing.

[Welpe]

I'm assuming the team B foul is a basic spot foul (as most of the potential candidates are). During a run the basic spot is the end of the related run. This is in the end zone and as team A was responsible for the ball being dead there, it is a touchback and the real basic spot is B-25.

However, fouls are penalized according to the 3-and-1 principle and here we do have the "one", ie. team in possession fouling behind the basic spot. The penalty is enforced from the end zone resulting the ball being left in the end zone by penalty, resulting in a safety (8-5-1-b).

See A.R. 8-5-1-III which is more or less exactly the play situation you are describing.

Thank you for saving me the typing, Kalle. Well said.

[fitz13]

I'm assuming the team B foul is a basic spot foul (as most of the potential candidates are). During a run the basic spot is the end of the related run. This is in the end zone and as team A was responsible for the ball being dead there, it is a touchback and the real basic spot is B-25.

However, fouls are penalized according to the 3-and-1 principle and here we do have the "one", ie. team in possession fouling behind the basic spot. The penalty is enforced from the end zone resulting the ball being left in the end zone by penalty, resulting in a safety (8-5-1-b).

See A.R. 8-5-1-III which is more or less exactly the play situation you are describing.

that is what i was looking for. thanks

[mrios73]

I have always hated this type of enforcement on change of possessions. B does not choose to put the ball in the end zone on kicks or INT/Fumbles when A puts the ball in the EZ.  Yet is penalized as if they had that choice. 

If Team B obtains possession in the Team B EZ and runs out of the end line or side line in EZ without penalty, they put the ball on the 20/25 for a touchback.  If A does this in their end zone, it is a safety.  So a touchback exception already exists.

But they should both be a safety. Just like if Team A commits a penalty in own EZ, with possession and if Team B commits a penalty in own EZ, with possession, both are safeties in current rules.

So there's inconsistency in the rule book.

We easily have an enforcement spot for when penalties occur the EZ, the 20/25.  Penalties for Team B for when change of possession occurs in Team B's EZ should be enforced from succeeding spot as an exception to existing rules.  If B takes ball out and it stays out, penalties by B in EZ should be enforced from end of run or touchback succeeding spot which ever is worse for B. It should not be a safety, B did not put the ball in the EZ. A does.

If after a change of possession in Team B's EZ, B takes ball out of the EZ and puts ball back in, then all bets are off and should be enforced as written as in this case B chose to put the ball in its own EZ.

This seems to me simple to do and change.  If A puts ball in Team B EZ, reward B by placing enforcement spots in field of play.  If B puts ball back in EZ, it should be enforced as currently written.

[Legacy Zebra]

It's not a safety because the ball was in the end zone, it's a safety because the foul was in the end zone. If Team A holds in their own end zone, but the ball never crossed the goal line, it's still a safety. The same applies here. Where Team B gains possession and where the run ends are both irrelevant. All that matters is that the foul occurred in the end zone. Don't want the safety? Don't foul in your own end zone.

[Kalle]

I don't see any inequity here. Consider these play situations.

1. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and is downed there. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-10. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-5.

2. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and is downed there. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-30. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-10.

3. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds in the end zone. Result is safety.

4. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-10. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-5.

5. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-30. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-10.

[mrios73]

It's not a safety because the ball was in the end zone, it's a safety because the foul was in the end zone. If Team A holds in their own end zone, but the ball never crossed the goal line, it's still a safety. The same applies here. Where Team B gains possession and where the run ends are both irrelevant. All that matters is that the foul occurred in the end zone. Don't want the safety? Don't foul in your own end zone.

IMO, A has 2 things that would warrant the safety for a penalty in the EZ that B does not:

1. Choice of putting the ball in their own EZ (or near EZ).  They plan a play and choose to put ball near or in their own EZ.  Team A could have a matter of a minute or minutes to decide what to do, including not putting the ball in their own EZ or running a play with no one in their own EZ.  On a change of possession, B has to react within seconds of the ball being in the EZ to get it out. Regardless of whether or not the ball crosses the goal line, B never has the choice of where the ball is and has seconds to figure out what to do.  It unfairly penalizes a team for making a great play (turnovers) or choosing to field a kick to make a great play all while never having control of where the ball goes when the play begins.

2. A has a greater opportunity to make a mockery of the game by constantly committing a foul in the EZ to go half the distance to the goal if the exception was not written in.  Without that exception, A would get an unlimited opportunity to choose to do this (why A would constantly foul I wouldn't know but it would theoretically exist if the exception were not written in the rules).  Seems to me as this is the philosophy by which the rule was written to prevent such a theoretical occurrence.  B would only have the 1 opportunity when they get the ball.  When the play ends, B would become the new A and thus would then be subject to rules as written when they become the new A.

[mrios73]

I don't see any inequity here. Consider these play situations.

1. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and is downed there. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-10. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-5.

2. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and is downed there. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-30. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-10.

3. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds in the end zone. Result is safety.

4. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-10. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-5.

5. B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-20. During the run by B40 B88 holds at B-30. Result is 1/10 for team B at B-10.

For scenario 3 allow me to edit the question for a few other scenarios I would theoretically change enforcement for:
A) B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-45. During the run by B40 B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule enforcement from the B-20 as foul occurred in EZ (touchback succeeding spot), 1/10 B at B-10. Rationale B did not put ball in EZ.

B) B40 catches a punt in his end zone and downs it in the EZ. Before downing the ball by B40 B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule enforcement from the B-20 as foul occurred in EZ and (touchback would be same succeeding spot), 1/10 B at B-10. Rationale B did not put ball in EZ.

C) B40 catches a punt in his end zone takes it out to the B5 before returning to EZ and is tackled (or downed, OR tackled at the B-5 or A-30 or wherever).  During the play B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule safety 2 points for A. Rationale B put ball in EZ during the play.

Complicated, Yes. We have no such other complicated rules in the book right?

I have no issues with the other scenarios listed.  My biggest issue is punishing B for making a great play and punishing them for making instinct plays (fairly or not) and not having the ability to control where the ball is.

Besides, why is B allowed to walk out of the EZ (or tackled out) after a change of possession in their EZ and be rewarded with a touchback? A doesn't get this benefit (understandably). 

If we punish B for a foul in the EZ after a change of possession when they have seconds to make a play, why not punish them for walking out of their own EZ with the ball (or tackled out) when they have the same amount of seconds to think about it?

We have many change of possession exceptions.  Why not this one as well?

[TxJim]

For scenario 3 allow me to edit the question for a few other scenarios I would theoretically change enforcement for:
A) B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-45. During the run by B40 B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule enforcement from the B-20 as foul occurred in EZ (touchback succeeding spot), 1/10 B at B-10. Rationale B did not put ball in EZ.

B) B40 catches a punt in his end zone and downs it in the EZ. Before downing the ball by B40 B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule enforcement from the B-20 as foul occurred in EZ and (touchback would be same succeeding spot), 1/10 B at B-10. Rationale B did not put ball in EZ.

C) B40 catches a punt in his end zone takes it out to the B5 before returning to EZ and is tackled (or downed, OR tackled at the B-5 or A-30 or wherever).  During the play B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule safety 2 points for A. Rationale B put ball in EZ during the play.

Complicated, Yes. We have no such other complicated rules in the book right?

I have no issues with the other scenarios listed.  My biggest issue is punishing B for making a great play and punishing them for making instinct plays (fairly or not) and not having the ability to control where the ball is.

Besides, why is B allowed to walk out of the EZ (or tackled out) after a change of possession in their EZ and be rewarded with a touchback? A doesn't get this benefit (understandably). 

If we punish B for a foul in the EZ after a change of possession when they have seconds to make a play, why not punish them for walking out of their own EZ with the ball (or tackled out) when they have the same amount of seconds to think about it?

We have many change of possession exceptions.  Why not this one as well?

As Rogers Redding said once, "It may not be fair, but that's not the rule."

[JasonTX]

For scenario 3 allow me to edit the question for a few other scenarios I would theoretically change enforcement for:
A) B40 catches a punt in his end zone and runs out of bouds at B-45. During the run by B40 B88 holds in the end zone.
   Result: I would rule enforcement from the B-20 as foul occurred in EZ (touchback succeeding spot), 1/10 B at B-10. Rationale B did not put it in the end zone.

How do you get to the 20 in your play when the run ends at the 45?  This is not a toucback.  The basic spot is the end of the related run. The foul occurs behind the end of the run so penalize from the spot of the foul.  This results in a safety because that's where the foul occurred.   It has nothing to do with the ball.

Try this.  Team A throws an interception in the end zone. The Team B player is tackled in the end zone for a toucback.   Prior to him being tackled his teammate blocked below the waist at the B-10.   Ruling:  Since the result of the play is a toucback,  the 20 is the basic spot.  The foul is behind that spot so penalize from the spot of the foul 1/2 the distance.  B's ball 1st & 10 at the B-5.

[mrios73]

As Rogers Redding said once, "It may not be fair, but that's not the rule."

Indeed.

[mrios73]

How do you get to the 20 in your play when the run ends at the 45?  This is not a toucback.  The basic spot is the end of the related run. The foul occurs behind the end of the run so penalize from the spot of the foul.  This results in a safety because that's where the foul occurred.   It has nothing to do with the ball.

Try this.  Team A throws an interception in the end zone. The Team B player is tackled in the end zone for a toucback.   Prior to him being tackled his teammate blocked below the waist at the B-10.   Ruling:  Since the result of the play is a toucback,  the 20 is the basic spot.  The foul is behind that spot so penalize from the spot of the foul 1/2 the distance.  B's ball 1st & 10 at the B-5.

I would agree with enforcement of the scenario above.  That is what we would do now.  Which I have no problem with because B fouled outside of EZ.

My issue is with penalizing B with a safety (for A) with penalty in the EZ by B when B has no say in where the ball is put in play at the beginning of play (either in or near Team B EZ).

It may sound crazy or may be due to lack of sleep or rational thinking but I have always thought:

If the team in possession causes the ball to be put in their EZ, penalties in EZ should be a safety.  If ball never crosses their goal line and penalties occur in their own EZ only Team A should be penalized a safety.  Team A should always be at a disadvantage as they have possession at start of play and they choose what play to run.  They also choose to put the ball in their own EZ or not.  They also choose if their own players choose to defend the ball carrier in their own EZ or not.  B places players to defend where the ball goes and is at a disadvantage.

If the team not in possession never puts the ball in their own EZ when they obtain possession they should not be penalized a safety if fouls occur in the EZ.  So if B penalizes in EZ after change of team possession enforcement spot should be succeeding spot of touchback.  So if run ends beyond succeeding spot of a touchback, enforce from succeeding spot of the touchback.  If run ends short of the succeeding spot of a touchback, enforce from end of run.  If run ends in own EZ, enforce from succeeding spot of a touchback (unless B puts ball in own EZ then penalize with safety).

Definitely feel that my logic or sanity would need to be reviewed for sure. 

[Welpe]

There's way too much overthinking being done in regard to the original play. It's a foul in their end zone by the offense enforced under 3 and 1. This is always a safety.

[Bwest]

I would agree with enforcement of the scenario above.  That is what we would do now.  Which I have no problem with because B fouled outside of EZ.

My issue is with penalizing B with a safety (for A) with penalty in the EZ by B when B has no say in where the ball is put in play at the beginning of play (either in or near Team B EZ).

It may sound crazy or may be due to lack of sleep or rational thinking but I have always thought:

If the team in possession causes the ball to be put in their EZ, penalties in EZ should be a safety.  If ball never crosses their goal line and penalties occur in their own EZ only Team A should be penalized a safety.  Team A should always be at a disadvantage as they have possession at start of play and they choose what play to run.  They also choose to put the ball in their own EZ or not.  They also choose if their own players choose to defend the ball carrier in their own EZ or not.  B places players to defend where the ball goes and is at a disadvantage.

If the team not in possession never puts the ball in their own EZ when they obtain possession they should not be penalized a safety if fouls occur in the EZ.  So if B penalizes in EZ after change of team possession enforcement spot should be succeeding spot of touchback.  So if run ends beyond succeeding spot of a touchback, enforce from succeeding spot of the touchback.  If run ends short of the succeeding spot of a touchback, enforce from end of run.  If run ends in own EZ, enforce from succeeding spot of a touchback (unless B puts ball in own EZ then penalize with safety).

Definitely feel that my logic or sanity would need to be reviewed for sure. 

How would you enforce these two plays?

A 3/10 @ B10. A throws an interception at the 1 yard line. During the return, B86 clips at the 2 yard line. A is tackled at the 50.

A 3/10 @ B10. A throws an interception at the 1 yard line. During the return, B86 clips in the end zone. A is tackled at the 50.