Author Topic: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation  (Read 1902 times)

Offline Mav

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Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« on: November 20, 2015, 09:41:17 AM »
Gentlemen - I'm hoping you can clear up a point of contention within our staff concerning blocking below the waist on a fake punt.

On 4th and 8 from A-38, Team A lines up in a punt formation for an apparent scrimmage kick. If Team A runs a fake punt, is blocking below the waist permitted?

Half the staff believes is illegal because of the situation - 4th down from a punt formation.

The other half believes it's legal to block below the waist because it's not a 'change of possession' play.

Would you please let us know if it's legal or illegal in this situation?

Thank you in advance.

Offline wlemonnier

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2015, 09:52:56 AM »
NCAA... Restrictions on blocking below the waist apply to a play in which there was a legal scrimmage kick, not just because of the formation. 

9-1-6-c: Kicks... During a down in which there is a free kick or scrimmage kick, blocking below the waist by any player is illegal except against a ball carrier.
Bill LeMonnier

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2015, 11:04:57 AM »
Good indication that a fake is coming from scrimmage kick formation is any Team A player blocks below the waist.  If there is later an actual kick during the down then we would have a "late" flag after the ball is kicked but otherwise a BBW is legal.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline bossman72

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »
Correct, legal play as you describe, as there is no kick.

We had a play in our game 2 weeks ago where a team did a "quick kick" with the QB on 4th down from a shot gun formation.  RB cut the DE.  QB then kicked the ball.  Flag for BBW

Offline Joe Stack

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2015, 02:38:22 PM »
Asking here: would it be confusing if the rule was changed to say "after" a legal kick? The reason I ask is that though I've flagged an upback cut blocking several times, it really seems like a foul for which there is no real advantage gained. I don't think the players know the rule well enough or think quickly enough to put together the idea of a fake based on a cut block.

Offline Mav

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2015, 02:57:28 PM »
Thank you men.

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2015, 01:51:58 AM »
Asking here: would it be confusing if the rule was changed to say "after" a legal kick? ....

It would be difficult to officiate given that the entire crew would have to know the timing between the BBW and kick.  Not sure that's possible which IMHO is why the rule reads as it does.  Don't think that we want to see coaches complaining with multiple angle stop action videos, that the BBW was initiated just before the kick and therefore your flag was incorrect.
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Offline zetaref

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 03:07:48 AM »
Same restrictions apply also to the defense: DL block low, nobody on OL does, QB kicks.

We have a lowblock in a kick play. By rule a foul, is this something by philosophy we can avoid?

Offline Morningrise

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 09:20:43 AM »
Same restrictions apply also to the defense: DL block low, nobody on OL does, QB kicks.

We have a lowblock in a kick play. By rule a foul, is this something by philosophy we can avoid?

Absolutely. No foul if Team B BBWs *before* a trick-play kick.

Online ElvisLives

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 02:41:33 PM »
Can't recall why, but the rule was changed in 2011.  Prior to that, the rule required that there be a kick from a scrimmage kick formation for a low block that occurs PRIOR to the kick being illegal.  I wish they would put that rule back in place.  Team B can't know when a "quick kick" is coming, so they should not be held to that standard.  When Team A is in a SKF, then Team B has 'notice' that a kick may be attempted, so they should avoid blocking below the waist from the time the ball is snapped.
At the same time, though, if Team A is in a SKF, but they know they are going to run or pass, then they have the advantage of knowing in advance that they may employ legal low blocks while Team B has to wait to see if Team A kicks the ball before they can know if they may execute an otherwise legal low block.

A possible solution:
Return to the requirement that the kick must be made from a SKF.  But, for blocks that occur before the kick to be deemed illegal, require that the ball be kicked before the potential kicker has moved more than 2 yards in either direction from his position where he receives the snap.  If either team commits a low block before that, and there is a kick before the kicker has moved more than 2 yards to either side, then it becomes a foul.  If the kicker moves more than 2 yards to either side before he kicks, then low blocks (otherwise complying with the rules) up until the time the ball is kicked are OK.
This would retain the safety provision of the rule when Team A kicks "straight up" (no trickery or deception), yet allows Team B to play normal defense if Team A fakes the kick and runs/passes, or runs before kicking.  Team A only has a very brief advantage over Team B, in that, if they run or pass from this formation, Team A would know they can BBW legally for the time it takes the potential kicker to move laterally 2 yards.  After that, both teams would know that they can BBW until the ball is kicked.  Once the ball is legally kicked, everyone knows that BBW is illegal.

Just ramblings of an old [your choice of words].

Robert

Offline HoustonRef

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Re: Blocking Below Waist from punt formation
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 03:00:58 PM »

Just ramblings of an old [your choice of words].

Robert
Can someone please provide the cliff notes for the above ramblings of this old long talker?