Free Kick with Illegal forward pass

[BoBo]

Free kick. Team B is down by 6. During return, time expires in 4th. Also during return, returner B80 passes ball forward to B9 as he's being tackled. B9 scores a td. Untimed down?

[BoBo]

My gut is telling me penalty accepted and game is over. No untimed down. The loss of down aspect is telling me I can not reward B with a free down.

[Kalle]

My gut is telling me penalty accepted and game is over. No untimed down. The loss of down aspect is telling me I can not reward B with a free down.

You are correct. It is enough for the penalty statement to include the words "loss of down", even if it only applies to team A in the normal course of actions.

[Joe Stack]

You guys are right about the result, but just to be clear, it isn't about Team A or B. The rule reads:

The period is not extended if the foul is by the team in possession and the statement of the penalty includes loss of down

So, if a team scoring on the last play -- any team (a or b) -- throws an illegal forward pass or commits another foul with a LOD penalty, no replay, no score, no nothing, go home!

[BoBo]

A couple are saying since it is a free kick there is a little nuance to the rule?  But I can not find anything

[BoBo]

Rule reference please Thanks

[Legacy Zebra]

That nuance is that the penalty statement in 7-3-2 specifies that there is only a loss of down if the illegal forward pass is by Team A before a change of possession on a scrimmage down. This foul is by Team B, after a change of team possession, and not on a scrimmage down. According to the penalty statement, there is no loss of down for this foul, so there should be an intones down. Now there was some discussion a while ago as to whether or not there should be an untimed down based on philosophy, but I don't know if there was ever an official ruling made on that.

[BoBo]

I agree

If I am team B in this situation why would I not do this on purpose.  Seems far fetched but teams will do it and it will happen.

I have sent an email to Rogers Redding so I am anxious to hear what he says.

I am open to other comments

[Kalle]

I am 100% certain that RR has ruled (maybe even in a play situations bulletin) that the period is not extended if the words "loss of down" appear in the penalty statement, even if the loss of down is not actually part of the actual penalty being enforced.

Actually the language "if by team A before change of possession during a scrimmage down" is redundant - in any other case there is no down to repeat.

[BoBo]

This is a response I received from Mr LeMonnier, I am still waiting to receive a response from Mr Redding.

Brad...

Interesting scenario...  The rule on loss of down is for Team A only.  In this play Team B the receiving team commits the illegal forward pass.  Because this is a change of possession play, the 10" runoff does not apply so all you can do is penalize 5 yards from the spot of the foul with an untimed down.  Like you I think it's an unfair "out" on the rule but to say they did it on purpose to extend the period is an assumption.  The player may have been trying to toss it backward but erred.  Rule references are below.  Trust this helps... probably a scenario the rules committee should re-consider.

Bill L.

Extension of Periods
ARTICLE 3 a A period shall be extended for an untimed down if one or more of the following occurs during a down in which time expires (A.R. 3-2-3-I-VIII):
1  A penalty is accepted for a live-ball foul(s) (Exception: Rule 10-2-5-a) The period is not extended if the foul is by the team in possession and the statement of the penalty includes loss of down (A.R. 3-2-3-VIII)
 
Illegal Forward Pass
PENALTY [a-e]—Five yards from the spot of the foul; also loss of down if by Team A before team possession changes during a scrimmage down (A.R. 3-4-3-IV and A.R. 7-3-2-II) [S35 and S9].

10-Second Runoff from Game Clock--Foul
ARTICLE 4 a With the game clock running and less than one minute remaining in either half, before a change of team possession if either team commits a foul that causes the clock to stop, the officials may subtract 10 seconds from the game clock at the option of the offended team.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Try 2009 Bulletin 1, Play 2.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Try 2009 Bulletin 1, Play 2.

Here's the text:

2. As B23 is returning a punt, time in the first quarter expires. When B23 reaches the A-6, he completes a forward pass to B79 who is standing in Team A’s end zone.

RULING: Team A accepts the penalty for the illegal forward pass to erase the touchdown, but the period is not extended. While a loss-of-down penalty is not an issue for a Team B foul, fairness dictates that the period not be extended, since it would not be extended for a similar illegal-forward-pass play by Team A. The penalty is enforced at the spot of the foul.  The second quarter starts with Team B having first and 10 at the Team A 11 yard line. (7-3-2-b, 8-2-1-b, 3-2-3)

I also remember reading (probably 8-10 years ago) that the statement "The period is not extended if the foul is by the team in possession and the statement of the penalty includes loss of down" would apply here since there is no team A exclusion.  Still trying to find where that is.  When (If?) I find it I'll post it.

[BoBo]

Great find NVFOA

As Bill states and I agree its an easy out for the return team take advantage of the rule.

It just seems as if its an unfair advantage they would gain.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Great find NVFOA

You're welcome. 

[wlemonnier]

Great find... I would have erred on this one but it makes perfect sense as explained.  FYI... here's a website that has all the bulletins from 2003-2012...
http://www.eaifo2.org/links/Ncaa.html

[Legacy Zebra]

I feel like this is one of those plays that should be added to the ARs. Without that memo (from 6 years ago), there is nothing in the book that would support ending the period. It makes me wonder how many rulings I may be missing because of things like this and how many memos I would have to track down to find them all.

[BoBo]

This is why this site is the best.

Thanks to all for your contributions.

Now hopefully this unusual play will be addressed in the next ARs or Rule Book

[NVFOA_Ump]

Credit goes to Andrew who found the reference first.     -  I just posted the text.

[bossman72]

My question is:  why does the rule even have to stipulate "loss of down if by Team A" 

To me, the bolded part is unnecessary and just creates confusion on plays like this.  If Team B has a loss of down, it's inconsequential, since they always have 1/10 at the end of the down.