Forward progress of ball that has crossed the side line

[#92]

Rule 4-2-4-a talks specifically of a ball NOT having crossed a boundary line when declared dead.
Rule 4-2-4-d in the first sentence doesn't specify any or no crossing of a boundary line. In the second sentence it states that if a player is airborne and the ball crosses a boundary line, the forward progress is where the ball crossed the side line.

But what about a non-airbourne player carrying the ball, and having it cross the side line?

I came across this in Rom Gilbert's Weekly Quiz of week 11:

Play 7: Fourth & 2 on the B-32. A88 has his feet inbounds near the sideline when he is hit and falls forward. The forward point of the ball is out of bounds on B's 29 extended when A88's body hits the ground out of bounds. The ball crossed the sideline on the B-31.

His ruling:

RULING 7: A /10 B-29. The most forward point of the ball when declared out of bounds between the goal lines is the point of forward progress ( ). An exception is when a ball carrier is airborne as he crosses the sideline. In that case, the [f]orward progress is determined by the position of the ball as it crosses the sideline. By the rules editor’s interpretation, a ball carrier who strides across the sideline before first touching out of bounds is considered to be an airborne player. A88 is neither airborne nor striding across the sideline.

Do you guys agree?

I would think the forward progress was at B-31?

Ball carrier A22 heads for the right-hand pylon at the goal line. The ball in his right hand crosses the extension of the goal line outside (i.e., to the right of) the pylon, and then A22 steps [...] on the sideline inches short of the goal line.

RULING: Not a touchdown. The goal-line plane is not extended. The ball is ruled out of bounds at the crossing point.

Ball carrier A1 is hit and his forward progress stopped inbounds near the goal line at the sideline to his right. When he is stopped he has the ball in his right hand extended beyond the goal line [...] outside the pylon.

RULING: Not a touchdown, because no part of his body touches either the pylon or the end zone. In this case the goal-line plane is not extended.

[cperezprg]

It's simple, when the ball carrier is hit, he's not an 'airbone' player, so we extend the plane, and the ball is dead where it hit the ground.
When the ball carrier dives, jumps, strides by his own out of bounds, the ball is dead where the ball crossed the sideline (or when he is is out of bounds in case the ball hasn't cross the sideline).

[Kalle]

I think you cannot take the A.R.'s related to the goal line extension when we are talking about the out of bounds spot, as this is a completely separate concept and rule (8-2-1-a). In this case rule 4-2-4-d is the most specific one and results in B-29 being the dead ball spot.

[#92]

It's simple, when the ball carrier is hit, he's not an 'airbone' player, so we extend the plane, and the ball is dead where it hit the ground.

Based on which Rule or A.R.?

[cperezprg]

2009 Bulletin #2, play 10:
10. Ball carrier A22 is running near the sideline in an attempt to score. At the B-1 he is hit, the
contact causing him to leave the ground such that the ball passes across the goal line extended
outside the pylon. A22 lands out of bounds beyond the goal line extended.
RULING:
Touchdown. By interpretation A22 is considered a ball carrier because his leaving the ground was
not voluntary but was due to contact by an opponent. (2-11-2, 4-2-4-e, 8-2-1-a)

[Kalle]

2009 Bulletin #2, play 10:
10. Ball carrier A22 is running near the sideline in an attempt to score. At the B-1 he is hit, the
contact causing him to leave the ground such that the ball passes across the goal line extended
outside the pylon. A22 lands out of bounds beyond the goal line extended.
RULING:
Touchdown. By interpretation A22 is considered a ball carrier because his leaving the ground was
not voluntary but was due to contact by an opponent. (2-11-2, 4-2-4-e, 8-2-1-a)

Umh. This does not make sense with how rule 8-2-1-a is written. The goal line is not extended in the case where a runner, being stopped in the field of play, reaches forward with the ball crossing the goal line extended outside the pylon. Why should it be extended for a player involuntarily going OOB?

[#92]

I think you cannot take the A.R.'s related to the goal line extension when we are talking about the out of bounds spot, as this is a completely separate concept and rule (8-2-1-a). In this case rule 4-2-4-d is the most specific one and results in B-29 being the dead ball spot.

My reasoning was to replace "goal line extended" by "B-29 extended".

And doesn't Rule 4-2-4-a limit what's being stipulated in Rule 4-2-4-d?

Thanks for that Bulletin from 2009, but do those keep their validity after all these years (with possible rule changes)? I don't see anything in the Rules about a ball carrier being hit? Or about the player's status as "ball carrier" needing to be confirmed by leaving the ground unvoluntarily?

[Kalle]

My reasoning was to replace "goal line extended" by "B-29 extended".

And doesn't Rule 4-2-4-a limit what's being stipulated in Rule 4-2-4-d?

Thanks for that Bulletin from 2009, but do those keep their validity after all these years (with possible rule changes)? I don't see anything in the Rules about a ball carrier being hit? Or about the player's status as "ball carrier" needing to be confirmed by leaving the ground unvoluntarily?

I think an interesting problem comes when you combine 8-2-1-a and 4-2-4-d in a situation where a player falls forward from the field of play (say B-1) out of bounds so that the ball in his possession passes outside the pylon and the player's elbow hits the ground OOB behind the GL. Where is the dead-ball spot? By 8-2-1-a this is not a TD and by 4-2-4-d the forward progress is in the end zone. Should this be a touchback??

Unfortunately only a few interesting play situation rulings make it to A.R.'s, which is a bad thing, IMO. We don't really know if the interpretation has changed since 2009.

[cperezprg]

Maybe this should help:

2-27-6-b
b.   An airborne player is a player not in contact with the ground because he leaps,
jumps, dives, launches, etc., in other than normal running action.

When he is in the air because an opponent hit him (involuntary), he's not an airborne player by definition, so 4-2-4-d exception doesn't apply, when the play declared dead is between goal lines.

When goal line is involved, the situation changes with 8-2-1-a, so the example in bulletin in 2009 will be no longer a TD, but rom gilbert 2015 example will stand.

A.R.8-2-1-VI-b
Ball carrier A22 heads for the right-hand pylon at the goal line. At the B-2 he dives or is blocked into the air by an opponent. The ball in A22’s right hand crosses the sideline at the B-1 and passes outside the
pylon, and then A22 (a) touches the pylon with his foot or left hand; (b) first touches the ground out of bounds three yards beyond the goal line. RULING: (a) Touchdown. The goal-line plane is extended since
A22 touches the pylon. (b) Not a touchdown. The goal-line plane is not extended because A22 did not touch either the pylon or the ground in the end zone. The ball is ruled out of bounds at the B-1.

Kalle, I don't get your point. If the ball passed outside the pylon, it should have crossed the sideline. So with 4-2-4-d we put it back there

[Kalle]

Kalle, I don't get your point. If the ball passed outside the pylon, it should have crossed the sideline. So with 4-2-4-d we put it back there

Well, if he falls forward with feet on the ground, he is not airborne. Thus, like in Rom's question, the forward progress spot is where the ball actually is when the player is ruled down, in this case beyond the B-0 yard line. But, as the player doesn't touch the pylon or the ground in the end zone, the goal line isn't extended. Again, where do you spot the ball and whose ball is it?

[cperezprg]

Oh, I thought you mean he was airborne. Now I see. Interesting question.

[Kalle]

Oh, I thought you mean he was airborne. Now I see. Interesting question.

I think the only sane ruling would be A's ball at the B-1 but by the literal rule this would be a touchback (the ball is dead out of bounds behind the goal line with the attacking team responsible and it is not a touchdown).