Targeting - Yes. No. Maybe So.

[TXMike]

https://youtu.be/uMgsGlVMgcQ

You Make the Call

[TxSkyBolt]

Nope. Shoulder to chest.


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[Legacy Zebra]

Agreed, no foul.

[scrounge]

Shoulder to chest, but I have absolutely no problem if it was upheld as well. Some incidental contact to the face mask, which causes his head to snap back a bit. Forcible enough? Maybe not...but maybe so.  Yea, the DB tried to turn his head...so what. Still going going for a kill hit, albeit it to the upper chest. He's walking a very fine line, and I wouldn't quibble what side of that line someone called it on.

[BrendanP]

I think this is a coachable clip. The defender purposely puts his head to the side to avoid helmet contact. Good no call.

[BrendanP]

Shoulder to chest, but I have absolutely no problem if it was upheld as well. Some incidental contact to the face mask, which causes his head to snap back a bit. Forcible enough? Maybe not...but maybe so.  Yea, the DB tried to turn his head...so what. Still going going for a kill hit, albeit it to the upper chest. He's walking a very fine line, and I wouldn't quibble what side of that line someone called it on.

I have a major problem with this line of reasoning. The rule is worded that it's forcible contact to the head or neck area, and/or using the crown of the helmet. You haven't satisfied either requirement. You don't get to make up/change rules as you go, and quite honestly, I feel like this is the problem that quite a few officials, players, coaches, and fans alike have with the rule at the college level, with the ejection and all.

[FatboyHL]

Note 1
: “Targeting” means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes
of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a
legal block or playing the ball
�
Some indicators of targeting include but are
not limited to:
• Launch—a player leaving his feet to attack an opponent by an upward
and forward thrust of the body to make contact in the head or neck area
• A crouch followed by an upward and forward thrust to attack with contact at the head or neck area, even though one or both feet are still on the ground
• Leading with helmet, forearm, fist, hand or elbow to attack with contact
at the head or neck area
• Lowering the head before attacking by initiating contact with the crown of the helmet


Where does the above come into play? 

In another discussion on this very play we have it about 50/50 and even in the ones that liked the pick up on the flag were still not 100%.

[Fatman325]

I understand why the flag was thrown and applaud the crew for getting together to get it right. I agree with Scrounge that the defender was going for a kill shot, but he managed to keep it low enough that the "forcible" contact was below the head and neck area. To make a good hit the defender should keep his head up and attempt to wrap his arms. Hopefully the defender learns that he is on the edge and works to stay legal going forward.
If we pick up a flag on a play like this tell the R to give you a head start and get to the coach who isn't going to be happy so that he doesn't have to start screaming for an explanation. You could see that both coaches were looking for answers but in the end only one needs an explanation.   

[TXMike]

Luckily the lucky fella who got to give the explanation to the unhappy coach is the one who provided the info leading to the wave off. So he did not have to explain what another official saw, he was the other official

[Fatman325]

This is when it helps to utilize the MIBOT strategy. Make It Be Over There and let someone else explain it.

[psv]

Had there been no flag, I would have supported a no call.  But once there was a flag, I think it should have been upheld. 

And it was a flank that had the info for the wave off?   what exactly did he see/say?  The BJ had the best view of the action, in my opinion.  The flank on the Yoe sideline had an excellent view of the back of the receiver...

But, lets see, do we have targeting:

1) Do we have a defenseless player.  Yes, we do. 
2) Do we have contact to the head/neck area of the defenseless receiver.  Yes, i believe we do.
3) We even have a bit of a launch on the back end.

So, once I saw the flag,  I think it should have stood.

That is my .02 worth.

[scrounge]

I have a major problem with this line of reasoning. The rule is worded that it's forcible contact to the head or neck area, and/or using the crown of the helmet. You haven't satisfied either requirement. You don't get to make up/change rules as you go, and quite honestly, I feel like this is the problem that quite a few officials, players, coaches, and fans alike have with the rule at the college level, with the ejection and all.

I have no idea what you are rambling about, but there is no making up of anything. Quite the contrary, I clearly stated that the intent of the DB or his trying to turn his head is of no consequence, only need to judge if it's forcible contact to the head or neck area. Some may judge it is not, others may judge it is. And this one is close enough that IMO both can be supported. So...continue the rant if you'd like, but I'm not sure what particular windmill you're tilting at in this conversation.

[Razor]

Defenseless player for sure.

[BamaRef]

 

TXMike, I've got a flag down.  It's close, but it falls under the "when in doubt" in my league.  Defenseless player and I see enough forcible contact (I know others don't, but I do).  This is a hit we want out of the game IMO.  Needs to be lower to remove all question.

[bossman72]

I have nothing.

Do you guys automatically eject in TX?

[FatboyHL]

I have nothing.

Do you guys automatically eject in TX?

Yes it is an automatic ejection.  No further suspension.  Just as in another conversation on this very play it is still about 50% flagging and 50% no flag.

[NVFOA_Ump]

IMO first view full speed (which is what we get on the field) 95% I would flag this.  That being said, after watching the replays, 95% I would let this go as legal.  The replay and slo-mo pretty clearly shows team B player leading with shoulder to the chest with a very obvious turn of the helmet away from the receiver.  This type of call is why the replay option was added IMO.  Probably a flag and targeting call initially, with an overturn on replay.

[goodgrr]

So if we don't have replay in games, should we flag it differently?

[wlemonnier]

I agree with "Bama Ref"... this falls into the "When in Doubt" category.  We constantly talk about player safety but then get hesitant to pull the trigger.  Consider this...

1.  I have "doubt" so I throw the flag.  You have "no doubt" so you step up and tell me.  I recognize my doubt and your willingness to take ownership... I pick my flag up.  I don't let stubborn get in the way.

2.  I have "no doubt", I stay with my flag regardless.  Don't confuse "no doubt" with stubborn.  Never be stubborn

3.  I have "doubt"... you have "doubt" it isn't... we stay with the call.

It's not an easy, clear cut situation.  The defender does launch... he does turn in an attempt maybe not to hit the head/neck area... but he does make contact to the head/neck area of the defenseless player as he goes across.  Is it forcible?  Your call.  Who created the problem, the receiver or the defender?  Put the flag down to protect players and the integrity of the game. 

Can replay over turn it?  Personally, I don't care... I love replay to death but if you officiate to replay then you're setting yourself up for failure and lack of ownership.  Don't officiate to replay... it's an electrical appliance run by other human beings.  That said, this play stands as called if you have replay.  Just take ownership and responsibility... Make the Call !!!

[Rulesman]

I agree with "Bama Ref"... this falls into the "When in Doubt" category.  We constantly talk about player safety but then get hesitant to pull the trigger.  Consider this...

1.  I have "doubt" so I throw the flag.  You have "no doubt" so you step up and tell me.  I recognize my doubt and your willingness to take ownership... I pick my flag up.  I don't let stubborn get in the way.

2.  I have "no doubt", I stay with my flag regardless.  Don't confuse "no doubt" with stubborn.  Never be stubborn

3.  I have "doubt"... you have "doubt" it isn't... we stay with the call.

It's not an easy, clear cut situation.  The defender does launch... he does turn in an attempt maybe not to hit the head/neck area... but he does make contact to the head/neck area of the defenseless player as he goes across.  Is it forcible?  Your call.  Who created the problem, the receiver or the defender?  Put the flag down to protect players and the integrity of the game. 

Can replay over turn it?  Personally, I don't care... I love replay to death but if you officiate to replay then you're setting yourself up for failure and lack of ownership.  Don't officiate to replay... it's an electrical appliance run by other human beings.  That said, this play stands as called if you have replay.  Just take ownership and responsibility... Make the Call !!!

What great advice! This should be included in every pre-game conference.

[dvasques]

Mr Lemonnier I hope you don't mind but I translated that and sent (with credits) to all of our officials in Brasil as a xmas message

[wlemonnier]

Mr Lemonnier I hope you don't mind but I translated that and sent (with credits) to all of our officials in Brasil as a xmas message

The purpose of this website is to share, debate, learn & grow.  I'm honored that you'll share this with my friends in Brasil.  Merry Christmas to you and hope to see you all again this spring for another clinic.

[NVFOA_Ump]

 :

What great advice! This should be included in every pre-game conference.

  I agree.  Bill's contributions are always on point and usually add some additional insight into what we are all trying to do.

[BrendanP]

Let's take a look at Washington State/Miami. The player there was trying to avoid contact with the player, however did make contact with the receiver's head with his knee, so it was a good call. Can we chalk that one up to being a victim of the wording?

[TXMike]

https://youtu.be/_Q9PSG_Hh2Q

Not sure what play you are talking about.  This is one I saw in the game but is different than your description