Question on a Try

[FFLDCTREF]

Try on the B-18.  The score is A27-B28.  A3's kick is blocked.  The bouncing ball hits A82 in the leg on B's 9.  B44 then picks up the ball on the B-3 and retreats into B's end zone where he is tackled.

Any thoughts?

[BrendanP]

1-point safety. It's as if the extra point was good in the first place.

[Legacy Zebra]

I think you're missing the illegal touching at the B-9. A82 was the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone. Since B doesn't foul during the down, they can recover the kick at no risk.

[BrendanP]

Well in that case, the try would be no good then and we'd move on, correct?

[bossman72]

I can't find anything that doesn't say that illegal touching doesn't apply on the try, so in this case, B would get the ball at the spot of illegal touching (therefore, the try has failed).

[ncwingman]

I think you're missing the illegal touching at the B-9. A82 was the first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone. Since B doesn't foul during the down, they can recover the kick at no risk.

Did he though? It's a try, so the LOS is the B3 -- if the touching occurred at B9, it was not beyond the neutral zone.

[Kalle]

Did he though? It's a try, so the LOS is the B3 -- if the touching occurred at B9, it was not beyond the neutral zone.

OP says that the try is from B-18 (possibly after a team A USC after the TD and before the try).

[ncwingman]

OP says that the try is from B-18 (possibly after a team A USC after the TD and before the try).

Come on man, you expect me to read ALL the words in a post? Ain't nobody got time for that!

[Kalle]

Come on man, you expect me to read ALL the words in a post?

Not me, just go and read a few of my attempts at answering a question and completely disregarding several parts of the question.

[Joe Stack]

You guys are skipping a step here (or maybe, half a step): you're going with what HAPPENS normally on an illegal touching for most scrimmage kicks, but not taking into account the wording of the rule and the play circumstances. The rule reads:

Such illegal touching is a violation that, when the ball becomes dead, gives the receiving team the privilege of taking the ball at the spot of the violation

Since Team B can't exercise that option (or privilege), why would it even be relevant? The next play after a try is a Team A kickoff. I don't think you can just say "Team B would get the ball there so we can go ahead and declare it dead there and call the try no good." If you disagree, please explain.

SOMEWHAT similar situation: First possession of OT, 4th and goal. A18 crosses the LOS and throws an illegal forward pass for an apparent TD -- the penalty for which calls for 5 yards and a loss of down. Since the next play after a 4th down in OT is first down for what was Team B, isn't the 5 yard penalty ignored? There isn't specific rule support one way or the other, but we just assume since you can't penalize from THAT spot, it goes away, the same would be true on this try. No?

[Kalle]

Since Team B can't exercise that option (or privilege), why would it even be relevant? The next play after a try is a Team A kickoff. I don't think you can just say "Team B would get the ball there so we can go ahead and declare it dead there and call the try no good." If you disagree, please explain.

Team B does have a temporary possession of the ball at the end of the down, first through play and then through rule. In the OP the first possession is in the end zone (for an apparent safety) and the second possession is at the spot of the illegal touching. This is separate from who puts the ball next in play and from where.

Consider this situation:

4th and 20 from B-30. A8 attempts a legal field goal which is blocked at B-31 and lands short. A98 muffs the ball at B-10. B30 picks up the ball at B-7 and retreats into team B end zone where he is downed. Time expires on the 2nd quarter during the down.

I think this too would be "no score, half over" and not a safety for team A.

SOMEWHAT similar situation: First possession of OT, 4th and goal. A18 crosses the LOS and throws an illegal forward pass for an apparent TD -- the penalty for which calls for 5 yards and a loss of down. Since the next play after a 4th down in OT is first down for what was Team B, isn't the 5 yard penalty ignored? There isn't specific rule support one way or the other, but we just assume since you can't penalize from THAT spot, it goes away, the same would be true on this try. No?

Here I do agree with you that there is no clear rule/A.R. support for what to do with team A penalties for fouls which have the loss of down component. I think that the intent is to ignore them, as all non-PF/USC fouls are ignored after a COP.

[bossman72]

SOMEWHAT similar situation: First possession of OT, 4th and goal. A18 crosses the LOS and throws an illegal forward pass for an apparent TD -- the penalty for which calls for 5 yards and a loss of down. Since the next play after a 4th down in OT is first down for what was Team B, isn't the 5 yard penalty ignored? There isn't specific rule support one way or the other, but we just assume since you can't penalize from THAT spot, it goes away, the same would be true on this try. No?

No, the 5 yard penalty is enforced on 4th down.  In your example, the yardage is moot since it's 4th and Goal.  But if it was 4th and 1 from the B16 and the IFP happens on the B14 or the B9, then the 5 yards absolutely matters.

"Loss of down" just means the down counts.  So you enforce the penalty and the down counts.