FG play

[SideLine]

Hello, new to NCAA rules and wanted to run a play by the board:

4/G at B4.  Score tied.  A3 FG attempt is blocked, doesn't cross neutral zone.  Ball at the B5, B33 kicks the loose ball into B's end zone.  B44 picks up the loose ball in B's end zone and advances across A's goal line.  Time expires in the 4th qtr. 

Let me know if I'm on the right track.  If not, nudge me in the right direction.  Want to try to get this on my own:

I'm thinking safety for team A because there is a new impetus, team B putting the ball into his own end zone.  I have the ball dead in the end zone due to it still being a scrimmage kick that has touched in the end zone untouched by team B beyond the neutral zone.  Foul declined, game over, A wins 30 to 28.  Ok how far off is that?

[BrendanP]

I would venture that the illegal kick would be enforced from the spot of the foul. 6-3-10 is the rule in question. Five yard penalty from the spot of the foul (or in this case, half the distance.) One untimed down for team A from the B-2 1/2, replay 4th down.

[JasonTX]

Start in 9-4-4.  If the penalty is declined, you are correct it is a safety due to new impetus.  Now, lets say you have 5 seconds left in the game and Team A is down by 6 points so they elect to accept the penalty.  Now what will you do?

[Kalle]

I would venture that the illegal kick would be enforced from the spot of the foul. 6-3-10 is the rule in question. Five yard penalty from the spot of the foul (or in this case, half the distance.) One untimed down for team A from the B-2 1/2, replay 4th down.

This is not an illegal kick but illegally kicking the ball, 9-4-4. Foul by team B during a scrimmage kick play, so we must check if this qualifies for PSK enforcement if team A doesn't want the safety. All conditions in 10-2-3-b are met, so team B keeps the ball, enforce from the end of the kick. End of the kick is in the end zone. The ball did not become dead in the end zone, so enforce from the goal line. Penalty enforcement leaves the ball in the end zone, so still a safety.

[#92]

[...] if team A doesn't want the safety.

Isn't the result of the play a TD for Team B?

(edit: no, I see now, Rule 6-3-9, so ball is dead in Team A's EZ, impetus by Team B)

The ball did not become dead in the end zone, so enforce from the goal line.

Isn't the basic spot the PSK spot? Where the ball became dead doesn't matter because the foul was during the kick and not the subsequent run. No? Result still safety of course.

[Kalle]

Isn't the basic spot the PSK spot? Where the ball became dead doesn't matter because the foul was during the kick and not the subsequent run. No? Result still safety of course.

Yes, basic spot is the PSK spot ie. B-20 and not the goal line as I claimed. Rule 2-25-11. Team A will decline the penalty, as then team B would get the ball at B-2.5 after enforcing the penalty from the spot of the foul (B-5), as that is behind the basic spot and the foul is by the team in possession.

[SideLine]

Thanks for the feedback so far. 

So I can tell by the responses that my thinking that the scrimmage kick was dead when it touched in B end zone was not correct.  Can you guys help me w a rule reference that differentiates this play from when a punt is ruled dead in B end zone untouched by B beyond the NZ?

[Kalle]

So I can tell by the responses that my thinking that the scrimmage kick was dead when it touched in B end zone was not correct.  Can you guys help me w a rule reference that differentiates this play from when a punt is ruled dead in B end zone untouched by B beyond the NZ?

Hrmph, sorry. Yes, you were right that the ball touching ground in the team B end zone before it has been touched by team B beyond the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead. Doesn't change the team A options, though (still either a safety or team B's ball at B-2.5).

[SideLine]

Hrmph, sorry. Yes, you were right that the ball touching ground in the team B end zone before it has been touched by team B beyond the neutral zone causes the ball to become dead. Doesn't change the team A options, though (still either a safety or team B's ball at B-2.5).

Thank you.  So it is my assumption that since the result of the play is a safety for A, they will decline B's foul and win the game.

[Johnponz]

Let's break the play down:

FG attempt is blocked behind neutral zone (at this point the ball is live and can be advance by either time)

B touches the ball and imparts a new impetus by illegally kicking the ball at the B5. (never crosses NZ)

Ball goes into end zone where B44 picks up loose ball and runs across A's goal line.  (6-3-9 does not apply because the ball did not cross the NZ.  the ball has to cross goal line for 6-3-9 to apply)  (8-4-2 (b2) applies  Ball does not cross NZ, all rules pertaining to scrimmage kicks apply)

It is not PSK because the kick did not cross the NZ (10-2-3 (b2))

Result of play is TD by B.  Penalty would be enforced using the three and one principle-the run ended in As end zone so this would be enforced from the 5.  The period is extended by an untimed down (the penalty statement does include loss of down but only if the foul is by A so LOD does not apply)

A will accept the penalty for B's foul.  result is A 4/G B2.5.  They will have another opportunity for the field goal.

[SideLine]

Let's break the play down:

FG attempt is blocked behind neutral zone (at this point the ball is live and can be advance by either time)

B touches the ball and imparts a new impetus by illegally kicking the ball at the B5. (never crosses NZ)

Ball goes into end zone where B44 picks up loose ball and runs across A's goal line.  (6-3-9 does not apply because the ball did not cross the NZ.  the ball has to cross goal line for 6-3-9 to apply)  (8-4-2 (b2) applies  Ball does not cross NZ, all rules pertaining to scrimmage kicks apply)

It is not PSK because the kick did not cross the NZ (10-2-3 (b2))

Result of play is TD by B.  Penalty would be enforced using the three and one principle-the run ended in As end zone so this would be enforced from the 5.  The period is extended by an untimed down (the penalty statement does include loss of down but only if the foul is by A so LOD does not apply)

A will accept the penalty for B's foul.  result is A 4/G B2.5.  They will have another opportunity for the field goal.

Thank you.  I'm hung up on why 6-3-9 doesn't apply.  Isn't the status of the ball still a scrimmage kick when it touched the end zone?

[Johnponz]

"The ball becomes dead and belongs to the team defending its goal line when a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone is subsequently untouched by Team B before touching the ground on or behind Team B's goal line"

I am trying to only bold "that has crossed the neutral zone", but cannot figure out how to do it.

FIFY

[SideLine]

"The ball becomes dead and belongs to the team defending its goal line when a scrimmage kick that has crossed the neutral zone is subsequently untouched by Team B before touching the ground on or behind Team B's goal line"

I am trying to only bold "that has crossed the neutral zone", but cannot figure out how to do it.

Got ya.  I guess my thinking is, if it retains the status of a scrimmage kick, then it IS a scrimmage kick that has crossed the NZ?

[Johnponz]

I see what you are saying. However, the kick ends once B recovers the ball and the subsequent run is a running play. 

This is analogous to a simple punt play where there is a foul on B after they receive the punt.  The foul (any kind of foul, holding, BIB, etc.) is administered as part of the running play that follows the kick play.  The kick play ended when B received the punt.

In your case the kick ended when B got possession of the ball in the end zone.  At this point it became a running play.

My explanation is off though because the foul occurred as part of the kicking play and not the subsequent run.  It gives a slightly different result, a foul by the team not in possession (defined during a loose ball as the last player to have possession in this case A)  is enforced from the previous spot in this case the 4 so A gets the ball 4/G at the 2 not the 2.5.

[SideLine]

I see what you are saying. However, the kick ends once B recovers the ball and the subsequent run is a running play. 

This is analogous to a simple punt play where there is a foul on B after they receive the punt.  The foul (any kind of foul, holding, BIB, etc.) is administered as part of the running play that follows the kick play.  The kick play ended when B received the punt.

In your case the kick ended when B got possession of the ball in the end zone.  At this point it became a running play.

My explanation is off though because the foul occurred as part of the kicking play and not the subsequent run.  It gives a slightly different result, a foul by the team not in possession (defined during a loose ball as the last player to have possession in this case A)  is enforced from the previous spot in this case the 4 so A gets the ball 4/G at the 2 not the 2.5.

Ok but if this is analogous to a punt play then, why isn't the kick dead once it touches the end zone, thereby resulting in a safety?

[Johnponz]

As I said before because the scrimmage kick did not cross the NZ...once the kick crosses the NZ everything changes. 

In your play, the ball crossed the NZ but after the scrimmage kick had ended.

[SideLine]

As I said before because the scrimmage kick did not cross the NZ...once the kick crosses the NZ everything changes. 

In your play, the ball crossed the NZ but after the scrimmage kick had ended.

Okay now we're getting to the heart of the matter, so when the scrimmage kick was blocked and then was illegally kicked while loose on the ground it lost its status as a scrimmage kick?

[Johnponz]

On the contrary, illegally kicking the ball did not change the status.  As I said above, it lost its status as a scrimmage kick when B recovered it and ran with it. This was a subsequent run play. 

[SideLine]

On the contrary, illegally kicking the ball did not change the status.  As I said above, it lost its status as a scrimmage kick when B recovered it and ran with it. This was a subsequent run play.

Yes but they recovered the ball in the endzone so if there was a scrimmage kick in the endzone wouldn't it be dead before B recovered it?

[Johnponz]

No, the ball did not cross the NZ prior to being in the EZ.  Read the prior post regarding 6-3-9.  The ball has to cross the NZ for 6-3-9 to apply and the ball did not. 

As soon as B recovers it is a running play so now it is fine (the ball remains alive) when the ball crosses the NZ.

[SideLine]

No, the ball did not cross the NZ prior to being in the EZ.  Read the prior post regarding 6-3-9.  The ball has to cross the NZ for 6-3-9 to apply and the ball did not. 

As soon as B recovers it is a running play so now it is fine (the ball remains alive) when the ball crosses the NZ.

I guess I'm just confused at how a scrimmage kick can be in the end zone yet it didn't cross the neutral zone?

[Johnponz]

At this point it seems like you are not understanding just for the sake of not understanding

The scrimmage kick was not in A's EZ (at this point the play was a running play and no longer a kick).  The kick ended when B recovered and advanced the ball out of their own EZ.

What do you think the ruling should have been?  In light of 6-3-9, when would you kill the play with a whistle?

[Kalle]

No, the ball did not cross the NZ prior to being in the EZ.  Read the prior post regarding 6-3-9.  The ball has to cross the NZ for 6-3-9 to apply and the ball did not. 

As soon as B recovers it is a running play so now it is fine (the ball remains alive) when the ball crosses the NZ.

Rom Gilbert disagrees with you, and I agree with Rom. See http://www.romgilbert.us/p-1403.htm play #6 which is pretty much the exact same play as in the OP.

[dvasques]

Wait, we're having trouble reading...

From what I understand, It's a FG blocked before crossing NZ
Ball lose (still a scrimmage kick) behind NZ is illegally kicked by B
Ball bounces in B's endzone
Ball is recovered in B's end zone by B and advanced across A's Goal Line

So the kick ends in B's end zone
And if it's a scrimmage kick that crosses the NZ, the ball should be dead when it bounces inside B's endzone
Therefore, B's run for TD is null

My question now would be if the illegal kick by B is considered to be a foul by the team with possesion or not

[SideLine]

At this point it seems like you are not understanding just for the sake of not understanding

The scrimmage kick was not in A's EZ (at this point the play was a running play and no longer a kick).  The kick ended when B recovered and advanced the ball out of their own EZ.

What do you think the ruling should have been?  In light of 6-3-9, when would you kill the play with a whistle?

Not sure why I would do that, lol. 

My answer is in the original post. 

I agree with you that the kick ended when B possessed the ball in their own end zone.  But what they recovered in their own end zone was a scrimmage kick that had not yet been touched by B beyond the neutral zone.  Therefore the ball should be whistled dead when the kick was grounded in B's end zone, which is what 6-3-9 says correct?