Author Topic: ING in end zone, 10-second Zap (Read 14323 times)

TxSkyBolt · « **on:** June 15, 2016, 08:41:07 AM »

http://youtu.be/-e4RgKNpoGA

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ncwingman · « **Reply #1 on:** June 15, 2016, 12:40:02 PM »

So my first reaction was "Clock winds on the RFP on a free kick? No way... that can't be right. Clock on the snap (or legal touching of a free kick) should override the RFP."

Which is true, except then I kept reading -- 3-3-2-f:

Snap Supercedes Referee’s Signal. Whenever one or more incidents that
cause the game clock to be started on the referee’s signal (Rule 3-3-2-e)
occur in conjunction with any that cause it to be started on the snap
(Rules 3-3-2-c and 3-3-2-d), it shall be started on the snap. (Exception:
Rule 3-4-4)

And now I'm trying to think of a way for Team A to exploit this -- but Team B can always decline the 10 second run off, with or without declining the distance/safety penalty, so a team cannot illegally consume time by committing 10 second run offs.

jg-me · « **Reply #2 on:** June 15, 2016, 03:28:39 PM »

The decision to start the clock on the RFP or the snap can only apply when the option for both is available. In other words, that decision only needs to be made when the next play is going to be from scrimmage.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #3 on:** June 15, 2016, 10:31:09 PM »

According to RR that is not true. He says in the case of ING in the EZ with a 10 sec zap, the game clock starts on the RFP for the safety kick.

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NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #4 on:** June 16, 2016, 12:44:24 AM »

Doesn't the applicability of the 10-sec runoff require that we rule the ING was to save time? In this case play isn't the more likely call that the ING was to avoid a safety since the passer was about to be tackled?

If the passer simply threw the ball away without any imminent threat of being tackled in the EZ then I'd agree that the reason that the clock stopped was an ING to save time, but I don't believe that this case play shows that.

That being said, it's a bit hard to read what we have to work with (the rules w/AR's) and come up with starting the clock on the ready on a free kick?

Kalle · « **Reply #5 on:** June 16, 2016, 03:26:26 AM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on June 16, 2016, 12:44:24 AM

Doesn't the applicability of the 10-sec runoff require that we rule the ING was to save time? In this case play isn't the more likely call that the ING was to avoid a safety since the passer was about to be tackled?

Technically, yes, but I would not want to be that technical. You commit ING in the last two minutes of a half while behind in score and I will rule that you wanted to save time in addition to yardage.

Quote

That being said, it's a bit hard to read what we have to work with (the rules w/AR's) and come up with starting the clock on the ready on a free kick?

Well, 3-4-4-c is a specific rule and it does not list an exception for a safety, so I would think that it does apply to free kicks, too. Granted, it does talk about snaps, so it could just as well not apply, but now we have word from the rules committee that it is intended to apply, so I'm going with that.

jg-me · « **Reply #6 on:** June 16, 2016, 06:43:18 AM »

Quote from: TxSkyBolt on June 15, 2016, 10:31:09 PM

According to RR that is not true. He says in the case of ING in the EZ with a 10 sec zap, the game clock starts on the RFP for the safety kick.

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Can you tell us where to find that ruling? Thanks

Bwest · « **Reply #7 on:** June 16, 2016, 07:26:56 AM »

What happens if you have a foul on the kickoff that requires a re-kick? Do we really want to re-open this can of worms by running the clock on a free kick before the ball is touched?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/wisconsin-runs-the-clock-down/8707/

ncwingman · « **Reply #8 on:** June 16, 2016, 04:29:35 PM »

Quote from: Bwest on June 16, 2016, 07:26:56 AM

What happens if you have a foul on the kickoff that requires a re-kick? Do we really want to re-open this can of worms by running the clock on a free kick before the ball is touched?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/wisconsin-runs-the-clock-down/8707/

If B/R is worried about the clock and a A/K foul might result in a 10 second runoff, B/R can always decline the 10 seconds (and therefore the clock running on the RFP) while still accepting yardage (or the safety as the case may be).

If they're worried about conserving time AND accept the 10 second runoff... well, there's only so much you can do.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #9 on:** June 16, 2016, 07:11:28 PM »

Quote from: jg-me on June 16, 2016, 06:43:18 AM

Can you tell us where to find that ruling? Thanks

3-4-4

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jg-me · « **Reply #10 on:** June 16, 2016, 07:16:03 PM »

Quote from: TxSkyBolt on June 16, 2016, 07:11:28 PM

3-4-4

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Not trying to be a wise guy, but I was not looking for the rule reference. I am looking for when RR interpreted 3-4-4-c to mean that we may start the clock on the ready on a free kick. In and of itself, the rule only addresses the situation where there is an option between starting on the RFP or starting on the snap. There is no such option on free kick plays. Rules 3-3-2-a and c have no exception for 3-4-4-c.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2016, 08:02:59 PM »

Sorry. I can't provide any additional information. I was pretty surprised at his answer also.

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ncwingman · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2016, 08:22:48 PM »

Quote from: jg-me on June 16, 2016, 07:16:03 PM

Not trying to be a wise guy, but I was not looking for the rule reference. I am looking for when RR interpreted 3-4-4-c to mean that we may start the clock on the ready on a free kick. In and of itself, the rule only addresses the situation where there is an option between starting on the RFP or starting on the snap. There is no such option on free kick plays. Rules 3-3-2-a and c have no exception for 3-4-4-c.

Read my first comment -- 3-3-2-f has an exception if 3-4-4 applies (that is, if there is a 10 second runoff, it starts on the RFP).

jg-me · « **Reply #13 on:** June 16, 2016, 09:40:24 PM »

Not disagreeing with what 3-3-2-f says, but this rule is also only referring to plays that will begin with a snap. There can only be a conflict (including the exception) between starting on the ready or the snap if there is indeed going to be a snap. All due respect to RR, there is only one rule that covers starting the clock for a free kick play and that rule is 3-3-2-a. Unlike other sections of 3-3-2, there is no exception in 3-3-2-a directing us to 3-4-4. The exception is only cited in sections governing plays that will start with a snap. I presume this is not an oversight.

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2016, 09:01:12 AM »

Quote from: NVFOA_Ump on June 16, 2016, 12:44:24 AM

Doesn't the applicability of the 10-sec runoff require that we rule the ING was to save time?

No. If it's a foul that causes the clock to stop immediately then the runoff applies. Any incomplete illegal forward pass would qualify.

Kalle · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2016, 10:20:27 AM »

Quote from: Bwest on June 16, 2016, 07:26:56 AM

What happens if you have a foul on the kickoff that requires a re-kick? Do we really want to re-open this can of worms by running the clock on a free kick before the ball is touched?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/videos/wisconsin-runs-the-clock-down/8707/

Can you give me an example of a foul that causes the clock to stop and would have previous spot enforcement during a free kick down? I cannot think of any. The only foul that technically causes the clock to stop during a free kick is free kick out of bounds untouched by team B, but then the clock hasn't started, so the runoff does not apply.

Bwest · « **Reply #16 on:** June 17, 2016, 03:51:06 PM »

Quote from: Kalle on June 17, 2016, 10:20:27 AM

Can you give me an example of a foul that causes the clock to stop and would have previous spot enforcement during a free kick down? I cannot think of any. The only foul that technically causes the clock to stop during a free kick is free kick out of bounds untouched by team B, but then the clock hasn't started, so the runoff does not apply.

If you use the above interpretation, then the clock would have started on the ready. A kick out of bounds would stop the clock. So would any foul after the RFP but before the ball is kicked, like a UNS. But you bring up a good point:

If we run the clock on the RFP for a kickoff, can anyone give me a good reason why a free kick out of bounds wouldn't be an additional zap-10? And then we would start the new series or re-kick on the RFP.

Kalle · « **Reply #17 on:** June 17, 2016, 04:30:20 PM »

Quote from: Bwest on June 17, 2016, 03:51:06 PM

If we run the clock on the RFP for a kickoff, can anyone give me a good reason why a free kick out of bounds wouldn't be an additional zap-10? And then we would start the new series or re-kick on the RFP.

I don't see why we wouldn't. The foul causes the clock to stop, ZAP-10 applies again and the clock is most likely started on RFP.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #18 on:** June 17, 2016, 04:33:57 PM »

Is that the only reason the clock was stopped?

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Kalle · « **Reply #19 on:** June 17, 2016, 04:51:14 PM »

Quote from: TxSkyBolt on June 17, 2016, 04:33:57 PM

Is that the only reason the clock was stopped?
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If ZAP-10 applies for illegal incomplete forward passes (technically the clock is stopped for an incomplete forward pass), it must apply in this rare situation, too.

Or is there a third reason to stop the clock? I'm counting the foul and the fact that the ball goes out of bounds during a kick down.

Morningrise · « **Reply #20 on:** August 05, 2016, 11:25:44 AM »

Quote from: Kalle on June 17, 2016, 10:20:27 AM

Can you give me an example of a foul that causes the clock to stop and would have previous spot enforcement during a free kick down? I cannot think of any. The only foul that technically causes the clock to stop during a free kick is free kick out of bounds untouched by team B, but then the clock hasn't started, so the runoff does not apply.

The clock starts when a free kick is legally touched in the field of play by either team. (3-3-2-a)