Author Topic: Mulligan or sorry on challenge (Read 19369 times)

bbeagle · « **on:** August 24, 2016, 11:27:18 AM »

Muddy, rainy day. New balls come out from the sideline virtually every play.

A new ball comes out from the sideline for the play. This ball does not have a 1-inch stripe on either side and was not one of the balls the referee approved at the beginning of the game. No officials notice. Team A scores a touchdown.

Team B requests a time-out to discuss a rule misapplication. The coach says the previous play should not be allowed because Rule 3-2 was violated - 'only legal game balls approved by the referee may be used during the contest.'

Do we say, 'Sorry, coach. We should have noticed that before' or 'OK. We have to treat the last play as it didn't happen, take the TD off the boards, reset the game clock, and redo the down'

george7244 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 24, 2016, 11:45:51 AM »

You call the td back for that you better have the engine running

NCVAReferee · « **Reply #2 on:** August 24, 2016, 12:03:18 PM »

I think this is a difficult one to take off the board unless you're talking the ball that was used was obviously not regulation size. The officials clearly erred by letting this ball come on, but under what grounds would you bring this play back? That the officials screw up was the cause or the team putting the ball in play illegally gained an advantage was the cause? If you bring it back, would you argue the team has responsibility for using only approved game balls (and thus should be penalized, but what penalty would you use)? If you argue 9.5.1g, then this would be enforced on the succeeding kickoff or try.

To me, this is a total judgement call considering the type of football that was used.

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #3 on:** August 24, 2016, 12:13:12 PM »

IMHO.....
Ask yourself : " Did the missing stripe on the football aid the player scoring the TD in his run/catch/whatever ?

$:-\$

? "

If your answer is yes, I probably would suggest following George's advice of "gittin' outa' town before sunset" and leaving your white hat for the

umpire

.

If your answer is no, you COULD consider USC on A's HC and try the try from the 18.

sir55 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 24, 2016, 01:01:46 PM »

The rule states that "Only legal game balls approved by the referee may be used during the contest." A violation of the rule has occurred. The TD would stand and a nonplayer USC would be charged to the HC, to be enforced on the try or subsequent KO. The responsibility for providing the legal game balls approved by the R to the officials during a down belongs to the HC and his team.

zoom · « **Reply #5 on:** August 24, 2016, 10:17:51 PM »

If you didn't shut the play down, then it is too late. The foul is a nonplayer foul, enforced from the succeeding spot. If you want to utilize the "God Rule" then I suppose you can enforce whatever penalty you deem equitable. Frankly, the umpire should notice the unapproved ball and we shouldn't have allowed the play. I doubt Team A was saving a "special" ball that would enable them to score more easily for just this situation, so this seems to be more of a problem of crew oversight than Team A malfeasance. I find that it would be a lot easier to explain to Team B's coach why we can't cancel the TD than it would be to explain to Team A's coach why we have to cancel the TD.

bama_stripes · « **Reply #6 on:** August 25, 2016, 08:00:09 AM »

In every game, there are rules violations that go unnoticed or ignored by the officials. In fact, I have a video clip from this past week that clearly shows a take-down at the point of attack which allows the runner to score a TD.

You want to take that one off the board when B's coach hollers & screams about it?

sir55 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 25, 2016, 09:59:59 AM »

Don't mix apples and oranges. Do officials miss fouls. Yes. But the OP says the HC followed proper procedure. He called a TO to discuss the misapplication of a rule.
Rule 3-5-11 states that:" . . . A player, directed by his coach or the head coach, may request and be granted a time-out for the purpose of the coach and the referee reviewing a decision which may have resulted from misapplication or misinterpretation of a rule, provided the request is made prior to the time the ball becomes live following the play to be reviewed, unless the period has officially ended..."

The case book gives the following guidance:
3.5.11 SITUATION B: Following a fourth-down incomplete forward pass late in the fourth period, a time-out is properly requested for a coach-referee conference regarding possible misapplication of a rule.
(a) The coach of B questions a pass interference call on B1 during a second forward pass by A1; or
(b) the coach of A questions why no pass interference by the defense was called and why the covering official inappropriately signaled that the pass was not catchable.
In either case the referee determines the coach was correct and an incorrect ruling and inappropriate signal had been applied.
RULING: In (a), the penalty marker is picked up. In (b), a penalty marker may be dropped and the pass interference penalized. Misapplication of a rule or an incorrect signal may result in picking up a flag or dropping a marker to indicate a foul did occur and gives the appropriate signal.

So, Yes, you are going to admit that a rule violation has occurred and you are going to fix it, not ignore it. The rule which fits is the nonplayer USC foul that is enforced from the succeeding spot.

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #8 on:** August 25, 2016, 10:19:11 AM »

I don't see this as a miss application of the rule. It was a missed call

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Ralph Damren · « **Reply #9 on:** August 25, 2016, 12:18:37 PM »

Many IE flags occur after the play is over...players unpiling and you notice no tail pads on one, and the like. This would really be no different, outside of the fact that a HC asked for a C/R timeout to bring it to your attention.

IMHO, give the questioning coach his TO back and flag the other for USC.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #10 on:** August 25, 2016, 07:42:50 PM »

How did the opposing coach discover the ball had not been approved by the Referee?

Ralph Damren · « **Reply #11 on:** August 26, 2016, 08:06:42 AM »

Quote from: CalhounLJ on August 25, 2016, 07:42:50 PM

How did the opposing coach discover the ball had not been approved by the Referee?
[/quote

He had been watching Tom Brady reruns .

sir55 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 26, 2016, 09:12:03 AM »

CalhounLJ, its hard to believe but some coaches actually pay attention and know the rules. A football without stripes is pretty easy to see.

ALStripes17 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 26, 2016, 02:34:33 PM »

Quote from: sir55 on August 26, 2016, 09:12:03 AM

CalhounLJ, its hard to believe but some coaches actually pay attention and know the rules. A football without stripes is pretty easy to see.

Some doesn't equal many... And nearly all only 'know' when something may look wrong.

Similar to baseball, just bc it looks weird, doesn't make it illegal.

This is a very bizarre scenario indeed and I hope my umpire would be able to spot this without an issue being created.

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bama_stripes · « **Reply #14 on:** August 26, 2016, 04:12:42 PM »

Quote from: ALStripes17 on August 26, 2016, 02:34:33 PM

This is a very bizarre scenario indeed and I hope my umpire would be able to spot this without an issue being created.

My U threw out the "kicking" ball last week before the opening kickoff for "no stripes". (shrug)

Rulesman · « **Reply #15 on:** August 26, 2016, 07:11:38 PM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on August 26, 2016, 04:12:42 PM

My U threw out the "kicking" ball last week before the opening kickoff for "no stripes". (shrug)

As with most "kicking" balls, the stripe probably wore off.

ALStripes17 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 26, 2016, 10:17:10 PM »

Quote from: bama_stripes on August 26, 2016, 04:12:42 PM

My U threw out the "kicking" ball last week before the opening kickoff for "no stripes". (shrug)

What area are you in? I like your philosophy on here and was curious. I'm near Montgomery.

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HLinNC · « **Reply #17 on:** August 27, 2016, 11:01:27 PM »

Had a JV assistant coach stab the "kicking ball" with a pocket knife after he heard me tell the ball boy I was going penalize his team if he tried to bring it in one more time on 4th down.

FLAHL · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2016, 07:22:22 AM »

Did you flag him for having that knife on school property?

HLinNC · « **Reply #19 on:** August 28, 2016, 10:45:42 AM »

Nah, I remember when teachers used to ask to borrow ours or a dip of Skoal.

ECILLJ · « **Reply #20 on:** August 29, 2016, 02:58:57 PM »

Quote from: bbeagle on August 24, 2016, 11:27:18 AM

New balls come out from the sideline virtually every play.

Couldn't the umpire find a towel?

SCHSref · « **Reply #21 on:** August 29, 2016, 07:45:54 PM »

The question is ...how many footballs MUST a referee approve before the game is started? That is a test question just about every year for us

Rulesman · « **Reply #22 on:** August 29, 2016, 08:59:09 PM »

Quote from: SCHSref on August 29, 2016, 07:45:54 PM

The question is ...how many footballs MUST a referee approve before the game is started? That is a test question just about every year for us

The minimal answer is one per team (Rule 1-3-2). There is no maximum.

wheel75 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 04, 2016, 09:41:47 PM »

Two; one for each team?? Isn't there an interpretation in the casebook saying if one team can't provide a legal ball, you play with the other team's ball. In that case, the answer is ONE.

CalhounLJ · « **Reply #24 on:** September 06, 2016, 07:11:11 PM »

We had a referee in our association tell a coach he couldn't approve more than 5 game balls per team..
He still hasn't told us where he got that idea...

Author Topic: Mulligan or sorry on challenge (Read 19369 times)

ALStripes17

ALStripes17

ECILLJ