Goal Line Play, momentum? touchback? enforcement?

[BoBo]

2nd down, goal to go on B's 6 yard line.

 A's pass is intercepted by B62 on the 1 yard line; his momentum carries him into the end zone.

There, after clearly having possession, he fumbles, and the ball rolls back into the field of play at the 2 yard line.

While the ball is lying on the 2 yard line, A14 intentionally kicks the ball, which rolls into and out of the back of the end zone.

Ruling? Penalty? Options?

[zoom]

The momentum exception is off since the ball came out of the end zone.  The ball re-entering the end zone is the responsibility of Team A (due to the kick), and since the ball became dead there, the result of the play is a safety.  The basic spot for enforcement for the illegal kick is the end of the related run, which is also in the end zone.  If the penalty for the illegal kick is accepted, since the momentum exception does not apply, the penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is in the end zone, which is also a safety. 

So, there is essentially no option here for Team B.  Team B scores 2 points and Team A will put the ball in play with a free kick from the A 20-yard line. 

[scrounge]

The momentum exception is off since the ball came out of the end zone.  The ball re-entering the end zone is the responsibility of Team A (due to the kick), and since the ball became dead there, the result of the play is a safety.  The basic spot for enforcement for the illegal kick is the end of the related run, which is also in the end zone.  If the penalty for the illegal kick is accepted, since the momentum exception does not apply, the penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is in the end zone, which is also a safety. 

So, there is essentially no option here for Team B.  Team B scores 2 points and Team A will put the ball in play with a free kick from the A 20-yard line.

I don't understand this one. If A provides the force that causes the ball to go from the field of play into B's EZ and it becomes dead there, why is this not a touchback? Now if the ball was fumbled by B in the EZ, declining the penalty would be a safety, I agree, but wouldn't B then accept the penalty for illegal kicking, with the basic spot being the goal line?

[BoBo]

B has the option of accepting the penalty.

Enforced from the end of the run which would be the goal line.

Bs ball 1st and 10 from the 15.

OR

Decline the penalty and result of the play would be a touchback

B ball 1st and 10 at Bs 20

[ajsowada]

B has the option of accepting the penalty.

Enforced from the end of the run which would be the goal line.

HORSE HOCKEY ball 1st and 10 from the 15.

OR

Decline the penalty and result of the play would be a touchback


B ball 1st and 10 at HORSE HOCKEY 20

+1

[The Roamin' Umpire]

2nd down, goal to go on B's 6 yard line.

 A's pass is intercepted by B62 on the 1 yard line; his momentum carries him into the end zone.

There, after clearly having possession, he fumbles, and the ball rolls back into the field of play at the 2 yard line.

At this point, the momentum spot is no longer relevant. Continuing...

While the ball is lying on the 2 yard line, A14 intentionally kicks the ball, which rolls into and out of the back of the end zone.

Ruling? Penalty? Options?

The kick is a foul. (9-7-1) When did it happen? During a running play. (10-3-2) Where is the end of the related run? In the EZ at the spot of the fumble. (10-3-3) The enforcement spot is the goal line. (10-5-2)

B 1/10  @ B15.

[The Roamin' Umpire]

Except, of course, they could decline the penalty and take the touchback. Oops.

[bama_stripes]

The momentum exception is off since the ball came out of the end zone.  The ball re-entering the end zone is the responsibility of Team A (due to the kick), and since the ball became dead there, the result of the play is a safety.  The basic spot for enforcement for the illegal kick is the end of the related run, which is also in the end zone.  If the penalty for the illegal kick is accepted, since the momentum exception does not apply, the penalty would be enforced from the basic spot, which is in the end zone, which is also a safety. 

So, there is essentially no option here for Team B.  Team B scores 2 points and Team A will put the ball in play with a free kick from the A 20-yard line.

I think you got your end zones confused.  Your answer would be correct if this actions happened in A's EZ.

[zoom]

I think you got your end zones confused.  Your answer would be correct if this actions happened in A's EZ.

No, I was just confused on the team that kicked the ball.  A Touchback is the result of the play.  You guys are correct.

[BrendanP]

Concurring with everything above. Penalty would be declined, touchback. A14 is about to get the mother of all reamings on the sideline, that's for sure. If he'd just picked it up and fell forward, it's a touchdown. Why would you kick at it?

[ncwingman]

I think you got your end zones confused.  Your answer would be correct if this actions happened in A's EZ.

Not quite. If we confuse the endzones, B62 scores a touchdown as soon as his momentum takes him across the goal line. Everything after that is irrelevant.

[zoom]

Not quite. If we confuse the endzones, B62 scores a touchdown as soon as his momentum takes him across the goal line. Everything after that is irrelevant.

Right.  The only way my answer would have been correct would be if a team B player had kicked it instead of the Team a player.

[dch]

I don't think we are quite finished with this play yet.  Roamin' Ump -- 10-5-2 doesn't apply because the run ending in the end zone would not result in a safety.  I think we need to decide if 10-4-6 or 10-4-7 applies.
Team B is in possession of the ball when it was kicked by A from the field of play thru the end zone and OB across the end line.
Team B's run ended with a fumble in their own end zone.  The illegal kick by A occurred in the field of play while the ball was loose during a running play.
Team A is not responsible for initially putting the ball in B's end zone.  Did team B carry the ball into their own end zone?  Yes, but they are not responsible for it either because of the momentum exception rule.
Team A is responsible putting the ball in B's end zone the 2nd time because of the illegal kick.

A is the defense at the time of the foul, therefore enforce from the basic spot.
Where then is the basic spot?  Is that the best choice for B?

[zoom]

Team A is not responsible for initially putting the ball in B's end zone.  Did team B carry the ball into their own end zone?  Yes, but they are not responsible for it either because of the momentum exception rule.

This is incorrect.  Team A's pass was intercepted in the field of play and Team B carried it across the goal line.  Therefore, Team B is responsible for the ball being in the the endzone.  The momentum exception wouldn't change who was responsible.  The momentum exception is an exception to the safety rule, after all.

The foul would be enforced from the goal line (10-4-7) but it would be declined as the final result of the play is a touchback.

[CalhounLJ]

i agree with zoom. The momentum rule no longer applies because the ball has left the end zone, so we have 3 spots to consider- the end of the run (where B fumbled), the spot of the foul (where A illegally kicked), and the final result of the play. So the basic spot is the end of the related run, in the endzone, so we start there with 10-4-7. If the penalty were accepted, 15yds from the goal line. The spot of foul is insignificant. However, because the result of the play was a touchback, it's obvious B will decline that penalty. 1st and 10 for them at the 20. is that right?

[The Roamin' Umpire]

I don't think we are quite finished with this play yet.  Roamin' Ump -- 10-5-2 doesn't apply because the run ending in the end zone would not result in a safety.  I think we need to decide if 10-4-6 or 10-4-7 applies.
Team B is in possession of the ball when it was kicked by A from the field of play thru the end zone and OB across the end line.

I'm sorry, you're correct: 10-4-7 is the relevant rule, and was written for exactly this type of play.

[PABJNR]

Why would B be responsible for the force, A forced the ball into the EZ by the illegal kick, basic spot is the 20. Enforce from the 20, I don't believe B has to decline the foul to keep the ball 1st and 10 for B @ B35.


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[zoom]

Why would B be responsible for the force, A forced the ball into the EZ by the illegal kick, basic spot is the 20. Enforce from the 20, I don't believe B has to decline the foul to keep the ball 1st and 10 for B @ B35.


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At the time of the foul, B is responsible.  This is only relevant if the penalty for the foul is enforced however.  The result of the play is a touchback because Team A is ultimately responsible for forcing the ball across the goal line where it became dead. 

[ajsowada]

Why would B be responsible for the force, A forced the ball into the EZ by the illegal kick, basic spot is the 20. Enforce from the 20, I don't believe B has to decline the foul to keep the ball 1st and 10 for B @ B35.


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What leads you to the conclusion the 20 is the basic spot? I'm in agreement with most others that it is the goal line.

[PABJNR]

10.4.5-d, 10.4.6 & 10.4.7 no longer apply because of the new force by A.


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[zoom]

10.4.5-d, 10.4.6 & 10.4.7 no longer apply because of the new force by A.


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10-4-7

The basic spot is the goal line for fouls, which are committed during running plays by the opponent of the team in possession at the time of the foul when the team in possession is responsible for forcing the ball across its own goal line, and the related run ends in the end zone and is followed by a loose ball, regardless of where the loose ball becomes dead.

At the time of the foul, it was a running play with Team B in possession.   
The foul is committed by the opponent of Team B.
At the time of the foul, Team B is responsible for forcing the ball across its own goal line.
The related run ended in the endzone and was followed by a loose ball.

This foul meets all of the requirements for the goal line being the basic spot under 10-4-7

Where the ball went following A's illegal kick is immaterial to penalty enforcement.  It only matters if the penalty is declined.

[PABJNR]

Thanks all I was getting hung up on the basic spot is the 20 on plays that result in a touchback.


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[KWH]

B will decline the penalty and take the result of the play, a touchback with
B 1st and 10 on the B-20 yard line

If B were to accept the penalty, after enforcment  the game situation would be
B 1st and 10 on the B-15 yard line

Rules 2-34-2, 10-3-3b, and 10-4-7 apply

If this ever happens save the video