Numbering Exceptions and Eligibility

[BoBo]

Had a great discussion tonight at local association regarding numbering exceptions and eligibilities.

Sorry if this gets long but we are searching for an answer.

4th Down and 10 on A's 40 yard line.

Scrimmage kick formation appears as this.

81-23-66-20 (Snapper)- 64-70-80

up backs 5-10-15

punter 3

on the set the right side of the line shifts over to the left side leaving #20 on the end of the line on the right side (snapper)

it looks like this now

80-70-64-81-23-66-20

up backs 5-10-15

punter 3

Who are the eligibles now?

Does it matter if the snapper has put his hands on the ball prior to the shift or not?

Does you situation change if you have this line up?

82-71-61-20 (snapper)-62-72-79

Then shift into

79-72-62-82-71-61-20 (snapper)

Who is eligible? (Punter and the person protectors all eligible numbers)

Again does it matter if hands are on the ball or not prior to the snap?

[BoBo]

Case book 7.2.5 Situation D has some info on this.

The debate is if we have 5 players numbered 50-79 then is this actually the numbering exception being used?

[FLAHL]

If you have 5 players on the LoS numbered 50-79, then you are not using the numbering exception. Eligible receivers are the ends, as long as they are wearing 1-49 or 80-99.

In your example, 23 and 20 are in the game under the exception, and they remain ineligible throughout the down.

In your 2nd example, after the shift, nobody on the line is eligible. The up backs and punter are all eligible.

[Atlanta Blue]

In scenario 2, you are not using the exception, so they may shift and make #20 eligible, since he is on the end of the line, and wearing an eligible number.

But in your first scenario, #20 will NOT be an eligible receiver.  K is using the numbering exception, he took a position between the ends (as required by the rule), and is ineligible throughout the down. (7-2-5-b2)

[Atlanta Blue]

In your 2nd example, after the shift, nobody on the line is eligible. The up backs and punter are all eligible.

You modified while I was typing, so I didn't see this until I posted.

Why is no one eligible in scenario 2?  The numbering exception isn't being used, so eligibility is determined at the time of the snap.  #20 should be an eligible receiver.

[FLAHL]

Guess my coffee hadn't kicked in.
Youre right AB. 20 is eligible after the shift.

[OHref71]

In first scenario 20 would be eligible if the shift happened before he placed his hands on the ball after he is still ineligible in scenario 2 he is eligible the whole time

[Brian26]

In first scenario 20 would be eligible if the shift happened before he placed his hands on the ball after he is still ineligible in scenario 2 he is eligible the whole time

I may be wrong but but I don' think #20 being eligible has anything to do with putting his hands on the ball or not. When players assume the their initial position in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down and they are ineligible by rule they remain ineligible though out the down.

[Brian26]

You modified while I was typing, so I didn't see this until I posted.

Why is no one eligible in scenario 2?  The numbering exception isn't being used, so eligibility is determined at the time of the snap.  #20 should be an eligible receiver.

Wouldn't #20 be ineligible even in scenario 2 because his initial position falls under the exception? He is ineligible by rule on his initial position so he would remain ineligible throughout.

Rule: 7-2-5b exp. 2 "On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into scrimmage-kick formation, any player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position  of any A plaryer numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B"

[Ump33]

I may be wrong but but I don' think #20 being eligible has anything to do with putting his hands on the ball or not. When players assume the their initial position in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down and they are ineligible by rule they remain ineligible though out the down.

Case Book 7.2.5D (I think) states in the Ruling "Once A25 (the snapper) placed his hands on the ball, all players in between the ends (A34, A66, A25, A64, and A86) become ineligible and remain ineligible throughout the down."

[ALStripes17]

I may be wrong but but I don' think #20 being eligible has anything to do with putting his hands on the ball or not. When players assume the their initial position in scrimmage kick formation on 4th down and they are ineligible by rule they remain ineligible though out the down.

The snapper placing hands on the ball creates the 'initial position' for the remaining players. That's the point of reference for who is ineligible by position (covered up) for the remainder of the down.

Edit to add: that is only when the numbering exception is being used... Scenario #2 is not using the numbering exception as there are 5 players numbered 50-79 on the LOS

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[Brian26]

The snapper placing hands on the ball creates the 'initial position' for the remaining players. That's the point of reference for who is ineligible by position (covered up) for the remainder of the down.

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Not trying to be BUTT but could you tell me where the rule book states hands on the ball from snapper creates the initial position?

[Ump33]

Not trying to be BUTT but could you tell me where the rule book states hands on the ball from snapper creates the initial position?

It is in the Case Book, I believe it is 7.2.5D but I do not have the 2016 Case Book with me.

[Brian26]

It is in the Case Book, I believe it is 7.2.5D but I do not have the 2016 Case Book with me.

Thanks

[Brian26]

It is in the Case Book, I believe it is 7.2.5D but I do not have the 2016 Case Book with me.

Again I'm not trying to be a pest about this  but after reading this a little more even though it says it in the case book the rule book doesn't specifically say that in that section. Does case book equate to the rule book  or just references of examples? I'm asking cause we had this same scenario brought up our association meetings and we came to a different conclusion. Our interpretation was the rule was put in place to keep offensive from using the numbering exception to their advantage to try and deceive the defense. Once they broke the huddle came to the line of scrimmage and set in scrimmage kick formation their initial position was set and any shift didn't change eligibility requirements.

[ALStripes17]

Again I'm not trying to be a pest about this  but after reading this a little more even though it says it in the case book the rule book doesn't specifically say that in that section. Does case book equate to the rule book  or just references of examples? I'm asking cause we had this same scenario brought up our association meetings and we came to a different conclusion. Our interpretation was the rule was put in place to keep offensive from using the numbering exception to their advantage to try and deceive the defense. Once they broke the huddle came to the line of scrimmage and set in scrimmage kick formation their initial position was set and any shift didn't change eligibility requirements.

The case book is as authoritative as the rule book (and says so in the front of the book). They work together, not as a supplement of hierarchy.

It is inferred from the case book comment that the initial position on the line is not established until the snapper places his hand(s) on the ball. That is a fair deduction and common interpretation given the statements in the aforementioned case play.

Edit to add: this applies when the numbering exception is being used.

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[SCHSref]

The case book is as authoritative as the rule book (and says so in the front of the book). They work together, not as a supplement of hierarchy.

It is inferred from the case book comment that the initial position on the line is not established until the snapper places his hand(s) on the ball. That is a fair deduction and common interpretation given the statements in the aforementioned case play.

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7.2.5 SITUATION D:

With fourth and 6 from the K20, Team K lines up with A21 as the left end; A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86 in the traditional five tackle-guard-center-guard-tackle spots; and A11 on the right end. All are on the line of scrimmage. Players A10, A20 and A5 are in the backfield with A79 lined up in the deep, position as a potential kicker. A25 places his hand on the ball. Prior to the snap,

(a) A20 shifts to the line of scrimmage on the right of A86 and left of A11 and sets for one second before the ball is snapped; or

(b) A11 steps back off of the line and A20 shifts to replace him as the end, where both are set for a second before the ball is snapped. Who are the eligible receivers prior to the ball being touched by B?

RULING: Once A25 placed his hands on the ball, all players in between the ends (A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86) become ineligible and remain ineligible throughout the down. In (a), once A20 assumed a position on the line of scrimmage, A20 became ineligible as he was covered up by A11. A79 is ineligible by number. Only A21, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible on the play. In (b), because A11 stepped back off of the line first, A20 becomes eligible as he would be the end. A21, A20, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible.

[Rulesman]

7.2.5 SITUATION D:

With fourth and 6 from the K20, Team K lines up with A21 as the left end; A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86 in the traditional five tackle-guard-center-guard-tackle spots; and A11 on the right end. All are on the line of scrimmage. Players A10, A20 and A5 are in the backfield with A79 lined up in the deep, position as a potential kicker. A25 places his hand on the ball. Prior to the snap,

(a) A20 shifts to the line of scrimmage on the right of A86 and left of A11 and sets for one second before the ball is snapped; or

(b) A11 steps back off of the line and A20 shifts to replace him as the end, where both are set for a second before the ball is snapped. Who are the eligible receivers prior to the ball being touched by B?

RULING: Once A25 placed his hands on the ball, all players in between the ends (A34, A66, A25, A64 and A86) become ineligible and remain ineligible throughout the down. In (a), once A20 assumed a position on the line of scrimmage, A20 became ineligible as he was covered up by A11. A79 is ineligible by number. Only A21, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible on the play. In (b), because A11 stepped back off of the line first, A20 becomes eligible as he would be the end. A21, A20, A11, A10 and A5 are eligible.

[bossman72]

Scrimmage kick formation appears as this.

81-23-66-20 (Snapper)- 64-70-80

up backs 5-10-15

punter 3

on the set the right side of the line shifts over to the left side leaving #20 on the end of the line on the right side (snapper)

it looks like this now

80-70-64-81-23-66-20

up backs 5-10-15

punter 3

If the snapper put his hands on the ball, 20 is ineligible.  Your only eligible is 80 (and the backs).

[KDJBBBJ]

Brian26 in the play you have 5 numbered 50 -79 on the line so 20 is not in under the numbering exception so he would then be eligible since he is now on the end of the line in an eligible number. 

EXCEPTIONS:

2. On fourth down or during a kick try, when A sets or shifts into a scrimmage-kick formation, any A player numbered 1 to 49 or 80 to 99 may take the position of any A player numbered 50 to 79. A player in the game under this exception must assume an initial position on his line of scrimmage between the ends and he remains an ineligible forward-pass receiver during that down unless the pass is touched by B (7-5-6b).