Punching back for backwards passes

[bbeagle]

Why do we punch back for backwards passes?

It seems to be a horrible mechanic, that can only cause us to look awful.

If the linesman sees a backwards pass and punches back, who is looking at him? Nobody on the officiating crew - they're all looking at the play. Maybe the line judge on the opposite sideline, but he's not going to blow his whistle anyways.

The only one looking at the linesman is the coach. Now when the referee blows his whistle when the ball hits the ground thinking it's an incomplete forward pass, the coach goes ballistic saying that it was a backwards pass - the linesman punched back!

Why not just do 'nothing'. If the ball hits the ground, NOT sounding the whistle means it was backwards. If someone blows the whistle thinking it was a forward pass, not as much harm as if someone punched back.

[prab]

Why do we punch back for backwards passes?

It seems to be a horrible mechanic, that can only cause us to look awful.

If the linesman sees a backwards pass and punches back, who is looking at him? Nobody on the officiating crew - they're all looking at the play.      (Disagree - when I  am R I always try to glance at the HL or LJ when a pass is in that hard to tell from my angle forward or backward area.)      Maybe the line judge on the opposite sideline, but he's not going to blow his whistle anyways.

The only one looking at the linesman is the coach.          (Disagree!)      Now when the referee blows his whistle when the ball hits the ground thinking it's an incomplete forward pass,  the coach goes ballistic saying that it was a backwards pass            (If R had glanced at HL or LJ he wouldn't have had an IW)      the linesman punched back!

Why not just do 'nothing'. If the ball hits the ground, NOT sounding the whistle means it was backwards. If someone blows the whistle thinking it was a forward pass, not as much harm        (Disagree!)      as if someone punched back.

I haven't quite figured out how to use the different colored fonts yet, could have made my post neater.

[ALStripes17]

Why do we punch back for backwards passes?

It seems to be a horrible mechanic, that can only cause us to look awful.

If the linesman sees a backwards pass and punches back, who is looking at him? Nobody on the officiating crew - they're all looking at the play. Maybe the line judge on the opposite sideline, but he's not going to blow his whistle anyways.

The only one looking at the linesman is the coach. Now when the referee blows his whistle when the ball hits the ground thinking it's an incomplete forward pass, the coach goes ballistic saying that it was a backwards pass - the linesman punched back!

Why not just do 'nothing'. If the ball hits the ground, NOT sounding the whistle means it was backwards. If someone blows the whistle thinking it was a forward pass, not as much harm as if someone punched back.

Why do we punch the widest receiver back?

If we throw a flag, it means the formation was illegal or an ineligible went downfield... If we don't, then everything was clean.

It's to inform people! Information is key. A backwards pass is a crucial play if not caught. We can't risk a lack of information here.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[scrounge]

Why do we punch back for backwards passes?

It seems to be a horrible mechanic, that can only cause us to look awful.

If the linesman sees a backwards pass and punches back, who is looking at him? Nobody on the officiating crew - they're all looking at the play. Maybe the line judge on the opposite sideline, but he's not going to blow his whistle anyways.

The only one looking at the linesman is the coach. Now when the referee blows his whistle when the ball hits the ground thinking it's an incomplete forward pass, the coach goes ballistic saying that it was a backwards pass - the linesman punched back!

Why not just do 'nothing'. If the ball hits the ground, NOT sounding the whistle means it was backwards. If someone blows the whistle thinking it was a forward pass, not as much harm as if someone punched back.

THAT'S the reason, to help prevent exactly that kind of IW. By punching it back - as well as loudly yelling "BACK", at least around here - you can let everyone know exactly what's going without them either a) guessing if it was forward or b) waiting to see if a wing blows a whistle. I've been saved as R on more than one occasion by a wing - often the backside wing - signaling and saying back.

Make us look awful? Quite the opposite, in my opinion.

[OHref71]

Also in the instance of the double pass by punching and possibly yelling back you are telling everyone the second pass is legal because the first pass is backwards.  Can prevent some arguments you might have if you do nothing.

[bbeagle]

I've been saved as R on more than one occasion by a wing - often the backside wing - signaling and saying back.

I can understand saying 'Back!'. That would help, but it's not a mechanic in our association.

It happens at least once a year where I've punched back, and the R comes up with a whistle. We look very, very poor as a crew when that happens.

We can't treat that as an inadvertent whistle either - that just compounds the error. Do you tell the defensive coach who got 'screwed' by not being able to pick up a fumble that not only don't they get that turnover, the offense gets another play? So, the whistle overrules the punch back.

Similarly, when a fumble occurs do we signal the other officials that we saw a fumble? No. We throw a bean bag that they might or might not see, then we silently watch the play. This is the most common time for an inadvertent whistle. One official sees the ball carrier go down in a pile and fumble right before hitting the ground, another official thinks the player is down and whistles.

If we have a backwards punch for a backwards pass, why not a signal for a fumble? 

[OHref71]

I can understand saying 'Back!'. That would help, but it's not a mechanic in our association.

It happens at least once a year where I've punched back, and the R comes up with a whistle. We look very, very poor as a crew when that happens.

We can't treat that as an inadvertent whistle either - that just compounds the error. Do you tell the defensive coach who got 'screwed' by not being able to pick up a fumble that not only don't they get that turnover, the offense gets another play? So, the whistle overrules the punch back. Not punching back solves it.

Similarly, when a fumble occurs do we signal the other officials that we saw a fumble? No. We throw a bean bag that they might or might not see, then we silently watch the play. This is the most common time for an inadvertent whistle. One official sees the ball carrier go down in a pile and fumble right before hitting the ground, another official thinks the player is down and whistles.

If we have a backwards punch for a backwards pass, why not a signal for a fumble?

If it is truly a backwards pass why not own up to it and treat it as it was an inadvertent whistle.  We do have a signal for a fumble it is called the bean bag.  Yes coach might be upset but that is what the rule states to do.

[bbeagle]

If it is truly a backwards pass why not own up to it and treat it as it was an inadvertent whistle.

That's a real good way of blowing up a game.

Play: 3rd and 5 on the A25. Player A1 takes the snap throws a slightly backwards pass to A2 who muffs catching the ball. Ball hits the ground. Player B1 ready to pick up the ball, whistle.

Coach B is clearly upset when he vents that 'The linesman was punching back!'

Referee: 'Sorry, coach. We'll ignore that whistle too - it's not going to be 4th and 5, we'll treat it like an inadvertent whistle, making it 3rd and 5 again'.

[Ironhead17]

Good pre-game will prevent this IW. I like the punch back as a wing. Let's R know I'm certain the throw was back.
There are strong opinions during pre-game on this topic but I'll continue the practice.

[Ralph Damren]

Pregame:
     White hat to wing officials : "If the QB takes a step back and throws toward the wideout, give me a 'punch back' if the pass is backward."
     
     Wing officials : "Ayuh" (Mainer slang for "yes")

     White hat to wing officials : "If you're in doubt, it's a forward pass. An incomplete forward pass has much less impact on the game than a backward pass that becomes a loose ball."

     Wing officials : "Ayuh, 'spect so."

  COMMUNICATE...COMMUNICATE.....COMMUNICATE

[Tom.OH]

I have been the LJ, while I do punch back and yell "back", I've always felt it was unfair to the opposite sideline coach. When I yell the home team can hear me and can yell to their players to get the ball , the visitors can not hear me. That's why I feel we should only use the arm and be quiet. Yea I know it helps the R from blowing the pass incomplete...

[TxSkyBolt]

I can understand saying 'Back!'. That would help, but it's not a mechanic in our association.

It happens at least once a year where I've punched back, and the R comes up with a whistle. We look very, very poor as a crew when that happens.

We can't treat that as an inadvertent whistle either - that just compounds the error. Do you tell the defensive coach who got 'screwed' by not being able to pick up a fumble that not only don't they get that turnover, the offense gets another play? So, the whistle overrules the punch back.

Similarly, when a fumble occurs do we signal the other officials that we saw a fumble? No. We throw a bean bag that they might or might not see, then we silently watch the play. This is the most common time for an inadvertent whistle. One official sees the ball carrier go down in a pile and fumble right before hitting the ground, another official thinks the player is down and whistles.

If we have a backwards punch for a backwards pass, why not a signal for a fumble?

No offense intended, but your R needs to slow down and look at his wings. In Your scenario the screw-up is totally on him. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[bossman72]

It also shows you've made a ruling.  If there is a close forward/backward pass, and the wing official doesn't do anything... I don't know if he's made a ruling or if he has "deer in the headlights" look and isn't sure what to rule.

[bama_stripes]

No offense intended, but your R needs to slow down and look at his wings. In Your scenario the screw-up is totally on him.

+1

[ALStripes17]

I can understand saying 'Back!'. That would help, but it's not a mechanic in our association.

It happens at least once a year where I've punched back, and the R comes up with a whistle. We look very, very poor as a crew when that happens.

We can't treat that as an inadvertent whistle either - that just compounds the error. Do you tell the defensive coach who got 'screwed' by not being able to pick up a fumble that not only don't they get that turnover, the offense gets another play? So, the whistle overrules the punch back.

Similarly, when a fumble occurs do we signal the other officials that we saw a fumble? No. We throw a bean bag that they might or might not see, then we silently watch the play. This is the most common time for an inadvertent whistle. One official sees the ball carrier go down in a pile and fumble right before hitting the ground, another official thinks the player is down and whistles.

If we have a backwards punch for a backwards pass, why not a signal for a fumble?

Throwing a bean bag down is the same exact thing as punching back a backwards pass.

I have seen numerous occasions where officials lost control of games bc they beanbagged a 'fumble' and looked silly as 4 other officials had the ball carrier down. Now the coach is ticked "Well, HE saw a fumble!"

Tell your WH to stay off the whistle. Knowledge is power. The punch back mechanic is a good communication tool.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[PABJNR]

The bean bag on a fumble has meaning with respect to penalty enforcement, as it signifies the end of the run. A backward pass beyond the line of scrimmage should also be bagged as it it the end of that run and could determine the basic spot depending on when a foul occurred. Also if you have four officials blowing a whistle when a runner is down there are too many eyes on the ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ALStripes17]

The bean bag on a fumble has meaning with respect to penalty enforcement, as it signifies the end of the run. A backward pass beyond the line of scrimmage should also be bagged as it it the end of that run and could determine the basic spot depending on when a foul occurred. Also if you have four officials blowing a whistle when a runner is down there are too many eyes on the ball.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bean bag has no purpose if the runner is down. But the defensive coach will see that and think there was a fumble ...
And no bean bag is required on fumbles behind the NZ. The enforcement spot is the previous spot for loose ball plays.
And I didn't say four other officials blew the whistle I said that they had him down. Peripheral vision does wonders.

You've distracted from the actual concept I was comparing.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[AlUpstateNY]

I have seen numerous occasions where officials lost control of games bc they beanbagged a 'fumble' and looked silly as 4 other officials had the ball carrier down. Now the coach is ticked "Well, HE saw a fumble!"

Anytime there are conflicting messages interpreted from happenings on the field, the appropriate courtesy would be to simply clarify the FINAL ruling.  There are going to be instances (inevitably, but hopefully not too often) where different officials reach different conclusions. 

An appropriate way to handle that is for the differing officials to immediately get together (as privately as possible) resolve the difference and issue a joint FINAL decision.  If questioned, a simple "He had a better look", with the final decision explanation should suffice.

How you choose to satisfy any observer who refuses to accept the decision, is up to YOU.

[Ralph Damren]

IMHO, while there is no reason to beanbag a fumble behind the LOS (loose ball play = basic spot = previous spot); we drop a beanbag if :

    (1) The QB is near the LOS, we bag at his feet and take a look-see to see if he's over the LOS;

    (2) WH bags the QB's forward progress when sacked, retrieves the ball from him and flips to U,
         has journeyed to the bag (HELPFUL HINT : tape a  wrapper to your beanbag).

We also begin to wear our LL Bean woolies come October, if you're below Mason-Dixon, you may want to hold off on them.

    MAGIC NUMBER / RED SOX /DIV. CHAMP = ONE          

[VALJ]

FWIW - in our association, the signal for a backwards pass is that nobody blows the whistle. If anyone has the ball going forward - or if there is any possibility that the ball MAY have been thrown forward - we blow the whistle and signal an incomplete pass.  I have yet to hear of us having an IW for a backwards pass using this mechanic.

As always, your mileage - and your association's mileage - may vary.

[PABJNR]

AlStripes I wasn't trying to distract, and you make good points, especially the one about not needing a bag on a fumble behind the LOS. There will be times when a bag is dropped and another official has a whistle as he had the runner down.  The officials need to get together on this, and also the covering officials need to see the runner down in possession prior to hitting the whistle, they can't just think the runner was down they have to know the runner was down.  It's little things like this that can make our games go much smoother.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk