Scrimmage Kick Formation (Numbering Exception w/ 10 Team A players)

[hefnerjm]

Play situation: 4th and 3 from the B48 yard line.  Team A lines up in scrimmage kick formation with 10 players aligned as follows:
                                   (8) (12) (*73*) (15) (19) (23)
                                           (9)        (35)
                                                    (31)


                                               (28) – punter 10 yards deep

Players A8, A9, & A23 go downfield.  A28 rolls right as if attempting a rugby style punt and passes the ball to A9 who catches the ball at the B-5 and runs in to the end zone.

Based on rule 7-1-4 (specifically 7-1-4-3 and 7-1-4-5b) below:

Offensive Team Requirements—At the Snap
ARTICLE 4. Violation of each of the following (a-c) is a live-ball foul; the
play is allowed to continue.
a. Formation. At the snap Team A must be in a formation that meets these
requirements:
1. All players must be inbounds.
2. All players must be either linemen or backs (Rule 2-27-4).
3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation,
par. 5 below.)
4. No more than four players may be backs.
5. In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team
A may have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to
the following conditions:
(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible
receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering
rule when the snapper is established.
(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the
line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A
commits a foul for an illegal formation.
(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule
throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless
they become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched
by an official or a Team B player).
The conditions in 5(a)–5(c) are no longer in effect if prior to
the snap a period ends or there is a timeout charged to the referee
or one of the teams.


It is agreed that the rule is written intending Team A to play with 11 players, and that this play situation only becomes an issue if Team A plays with 10.  (if playing with 11, then the extra man on the LOS allows both ends to be eligible by position and still have 5 players numbered 50-79 or legal exceptions.  If the 11th player lined up in the backfield, then you have Team A illegal formation for more than 4 backs.).

Please discuss if you would have a foul for:
a)   illegal formation on Team A – not 5 players numbered 50-79 (or legal exceptions) on the LOS
b)   ineligible downfield – if you don’t have illegal formation, then do you accept 5 of the 6 players on the LOS as legal exceptions that become ineligible receivers by position.
c)   No foul by team A.  Please provide rationale 

Some have said that by philosophy, if Team A plays with 10 players (legal) and is able to win the down, should they be penalized in this situation?

[bossman72]

No foul.  What rule did they break, specifically?

[bama_stripes]

Play situation: 4th and 3 from the B48 yard line.  Team A lines up in scrimmage kick formation with 10 players aligned as follows:
                                   (8) (12) (*73*) (15) (19) (23)
                                           (9)        (35)
                                                    (31)


                                               (28) – punter 10 yards deep

If this is the formation you intended, it's an Illegal Formation penalty on K -- they've only got 6 players on the line.

[Welpe]

If this is the formation you intended, it's an Illegal Formation penalty on K -- they've only got 6 players on the line.

It's legal in NCAA as they only have four in the back field.

[marcottem]

I think this is a live-ball illegal formation foul per 7-1-4a5(b) -- which states "any and all such numbering exception players... may not be on the end of the line."  In this formation, either #8 or #23 must be a numbering exception if the requirement to have five linemen is fulfilled, and one of them (not sure which one -- doesn't really matter) is on the end of the line).

[Welpe]

Let's parse through this looking at the rules you quoted above.

3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation,
par. 5 below.)

This is not true so we go to Item #5 as the exception.

5. In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team
A may have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to
the following conditions:
(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible
receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering
rule when the snapper is established.

This makes players #12, #15 and #19 exceptions to the rule. Note that they don't have to 5 players as interior linemen, only that the players who are interior linemen do not have to have numbers 50-79 in this exception.

(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the
line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A
commits a foul for an illegal formation.

This is true so they are good. If they shifted and uncovered #12, 15 or 19 then this rule would be violated.

As bossman said, there isn't a rule they are actually violating. They don't have to have 5 players numbered 50-79 because they are in a scrimmage kick formation. None of the rules in the exception are violated. Legal play.

[Hawkeye]

I agree ... Legal Play

No where does it state that team A has to have 5 linemen in ineligible positions, just that any linemen who are ineligible by position and not numbered 50-79 are numbering exceptions.

[TXMike]

Legal   This is Question 8 on 2013 CFO Quiz 5

8. Fourth and seven at the A-45. Team A only has 10 players on the field, with four in
the backfield. The players on the line of scrimmage from left to right are: 22, 50, 55, 61,
73, and 30. Team A’s punt bounces out of bounds at the B-30.
a. Illegal formation: fewer than five players on the line of scrimmage numbered
in the range 50-79.
b. Legal play.
c. Illegal formation: not enough players on the line of scrimmage

The answer key has b as correct answer.

The crux of the argument is those on one side say there have to be 5 50-59 or the total number of 50 - 79 plus exceptions has to equal 5.    That is simply reading too much into the rule and also ignoring the intent of the rule as well as the rule change that permits A to play with 6 or fewer on the line when they have 10 or fewer in the game.

[centexsports]

Interesting but I think I disagree.

Under NCAA rules a team can snap the ball with only 6 players (5 numbered 50 - 79 and someone to take the snap).   So for the exception to take effect there must be five replacing these required linemen.   That puts #23 ineligible by position and by rule he must be covered up.   That means we have both an illegal formation and in ineligible downfield.   

NO?

Maybe I responded too late.

[bama_stripes]

It's legal in NCAA as they only have four in the back field.

DOH -- read the forum name next time, dummy!     

[TXMike]

The rule:
5. In a scrimmage kick formation at the snap (Rule 2-16-10) Team A may have fewer than five linemen numbered 50-79, subject to the following conditions:

(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established.

(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a foul for an illegal formation.

(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless they become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched by an official or a Team B player).

The rule says Team A only has to meet these 3 conditions to play with less than 5 50-79.  The first condition is that any exceptions who are "ineligible by position".   What does that mean?  It means they lined up on the line BETWEEN THE ENDS when the snapper is established.

The 2d is the exceptions must be on the line and not on the end .

The 3d is they remain ineligible throughout the down. 

Nothing in there says there has to be a total of 5 50-79 or a total of 5 who are numbered 50-79 or who are exceptions.   

Those who say there has to be 5, which of the 2 ends on this 6 man line are you declaring is an exception?

[Joe Stack]

So for the exception to take effect there must be five replacing these required linemen.

You get this where?

I do think that when the NCAA changed the 7 on the line to no more than 4 in the backfield back around 2008, we began to miss illegal formation fouls for when an offense was missing a guard or other interior lineman on a non-scrimmage kick formation play. I'd bet money I've missed it several times. We (or at least, I) felt like the intent of the rule was to not penalize Team A if they, for whatever reason, played with 10 or fewer players.

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but is my scenario in the above paragraph a foul or an ignore?

[Clear Lake ref]

There is an AR addressing 10 players on a normal play. It says the formation is legal because you have 5 linemen 50-79 and no more than 4 in the backfield.

I agree that if Team A didn't have a right guard they shouldn't be penalized but it would seem the rules dictate otherwise.

[hefnerjm]

Much of the discussion is based on how part 5 reads, but I think some of the confusion may be in how paragraph 3 is being read/applied.

"3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation,
par. 5 below.)"


I think the simplest way to ask the question is this:
Does the exception apply to:
a) the number of linemen [5]
or
b) the jersey numbers of the linemen
or
c) both


All of paragraph 5 refers to the conditions to become a "numbering exception", so my initial interpretation is that the exception only applies to b) the jersey numbers of the linemen.

(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible
receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering
rule when the snapper is established.

(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the
line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A
commits a foul for an illegal formation.

(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule
throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless
they become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched
by an official or a Team B player).

If we are saying that the exception applies to both the jersey number, and the actual number of linemen, then I can understand the application that Mike provided regarding the exception only applying to the interior linemen. 

[NVFOA_Ump]

If we go back to the original play IMO it is not the same as the play from question 8 on 2013 CFO Quiz 5.  Here we have an "uncovered interior lineman" that goes downfield and catches a pass.

While I agree and understand (I think) the numbering exception, we've had discussions when the rule changed that it is now a requirement that team A must have 5 ineligible lineman on the LOS ("five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79").  IMO given the (admittedly ambiguous) exception wording, it only allows those 5 interior lineman to have numbers outside the range of 50 thru 79 - not to have less than 5 of them.

The referenced quiz question does not address the issue of an "numbering exception player" (who IMHO has to be ineligible) going downfield for a pass as he does in the case play here.  Is there an AR, quiz question, or memo that address the eligibility issue that is raised by the case play here?

Under the rules we, and more importantly team B, must be able to identify the ineligibles and eligibles prior to the snap (again, IMO there must be 5 of them) and that can't be done here, so IMO at least one of them is in fact illegally downfield on this play. If none of them went downfield, and the pass was to a back then IMO we're OK.

[TXMike]

It absolutely does address. There would be a foul for illegal formation in the real play and the quiz play says no foul so that means no foul for illegal formation in yhebraknplay.  And if the formation is legal , meaning no exceptions on the end  then those ends are eligible

[FatboyHL]

Let's flipped the situation.  You have this formation form the R position left to right

23, 44, 88(snapper), 4, 33, 19, 38, 80  all on the line of scrimmage

10(punter), 6, 2 in the back field

Question I pose to you who are the eligible receivers, ineligibles, and who are the numbering exceptions?

[NVFOA_Ump]

It absolutely does address. There would be a foul for illegal formation in the real play and the quiz play says no foul so that means no foul for illegal formation in yhebraknplay.  And if the formation is legal , meaning no exceptions on the end  then those ends are eligible

I'll disagree.  In the quiz play no "ineligibles" went downfield and 5 "ineligible lineman" remained on the LOS.  In the case play here, at least one of the "ineligible"  players went downfield (since only 4 remained behind the LOS).  IMHO we have to have an ineligible receiver downfield on this case play.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Let's flipped the situation.  You have this formation form the R position left to right

23, 44, 88(snapper), 4, 33, 19, 38, 80  all on the line of scrimmage

10(punter), 6, 2 in the back field

Question I pose to you who are the eligible receivers, ineligibles, and who are the numbering exceptions?

Eligibles are the ends and the backs (23, 80, 10, 6, 2) ineligibles are 44, 48, 4, 33, 19, 38.  There's at least 5 ineligibles on the line so the ends (23 and 88) are clearly identifiable (to both us and team B) as the eligibles on the LOS.

[FatboyHL]

ARTICLE 3. a. Eligibility rules apply during a down when a legal forward
pass is thrown.
b. All Team B players are eligible to touch or catch a pass.
c. When the ball is snapped, the following Team A players are eligible:
1. Each lineman who is on the end of his scrimmage line and who is
wearing a number other than 50 through 79.
2.
Each back wearing a number other than 50 through 79.
d.
An eligible player loses his eligibility when he goes out of bounds. (Rule
7-3-4) (A. R. 7-3-9-III)

[FatboyHL]

Eligibles are the ends and the backs (23, 80, 10, 6, 2) ineligibles are 44, 48, 4, 33, 19, 38.  There's at least 5 ineligibles on the line so the ends (23 and 88) are clearly identifiable (to both us and team B) the eligible on the LOS.

Who are the numbering exceptions?

[TXMike]

Roy - You are missing the point.  If the player is ineligible, then it is an illegal formation.  You cant have ineligibles (as exceptions) on the end of the line.  The quiz said it was not an illegal formation so those 2 are eloigible.   

And I await your answer as to which of the 2 you are designating an exception and why

[Welpe]

"3. At least five linemen must wear jerseys numbered 50 through 79
(Exception: When the snap is from a scrimmage kick formation,
par. 5 below.)"


I think the simplest way to ask the question is this:
Does the exception apply to:
a) the number of linemen [5]
or
b) the jersey numbers of the linemen
or
c) both

The exception applies to Team A. They must have 5 linemen with numbers 50-79. If they don't it's a foul UNLESS they are in scrimmage kick formation. If that's the case, you go to Paragraph 5 for requirements.

You're reading more into the rule than what is there. Paragraph 5 lays out for us that any eligible numbers that are ineligible by position are a part of the numbering exception. The exception is that they don't have to 5 players 50-79 on the line of scrimmage because they are in scrimmage kick formation. That's all the exception is.

Paragraph 5 only tells us who is eligible and who is not and how they may legally line up. There is no requirement that there be a 1 to one match for every player 50-79 that is missing from the line of scrimmage.

The exception applies to the team.

[TXMike]

Get your butt back to Texas and help me splain that to folks Welpe!

[centexsports]

(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the
line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A
commits a foul for an illegal formation.

I understand what you have said but just to clear my mind.   What would a formation look like that made it an illegal formation per (b) above?