Author Topic: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds  (Read 2134 times)

Offline Badger1

  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« on: September 28, 2016, 08:13:30 AM »
During the GB Packers game against the Detroit Lions this past weekend a Packer intentionally went out of bounds during the kickoff (he was on the receiving team) and touched the ball while it was inbounds near the goal line while he was still out of bounds causing the ball to be dead.  Now I have been asked by a high school coach if this play would be legal under NFHS rules.  I believe it would be a violation of Rule 9 Section 6 Article 2 (b&c).  However, several officials on another website I belong to believe it a legal play as the kick receiver never returned back to the field prior to touching the ball.  Asking for your opinions on the play.

Online bama_stripes

  • *
  • Posts: 2202
  • FAN REACTION: +69/-24
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2016, 08:53:03 AM »
Sounds like cheating to me.

A player who intentionally goes OOB & then participates is guilty of Illegal Participation.  There used to be a Case Book play about a receiver who intentionally went beyond B's end line, jumped, and batted a pass back to a teammate.  That was ruled IP, even though he never came back inbounds.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2016, 08:59:01 AM »
I believe what you believe. 9-6-2b :" No player shall intentionally go out of bounds during the down and intentionally touch the ball."  IMHO, that sez' it all. I don't see why the Packer player thought it was a good idea as that gave them the ball deep in their territory vs letting it go into EZ for a TB. In NFHS, it would be IP with the free kick repeated at R's 45 or take the play with R's ball deep.

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1161
  • FAN REACTION: +52/-21
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2016, 09:34:02 AM »
So, devil's advocate, if you judge R to have UNINTENTIONALLY stepped out of bounds, this is a KOB foul then, correct?

Online prab

  • *
  • Posts: 529
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-35
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2016, 09:39:38 AM »
So, devil's advocate, if you judge R to have UNINTENTIONALLY stepped out of bounds, this is a KOB foul then, correct?

I am going to disagree on this new scenario.

It is only KOB if it goes out of bounds untouched by R.  Here R clearly touched it and the touching is clearly a factor in the ball gaining out of bounds status.

Offline Badger1

  • *
  • Posts: 23
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2016, 09:44:30 AM »
Hey bossman72,  Unfortunately Rule 9 Section 6 Illegal Participation doesn't address the receiving team accidentally being out of bounds and then touching the live ball.  So I guess playing devil's advocate you would be correct?

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2016, 10:13:44 AM »
Back in 2000 we tweaked the KOB rule that used to read : " foul...if LAST TOUCHED by K" . This allowed a kick that was muffed by several opponents and was last touched by K before OOB to be a foul. With the new rule came a lobster trap full (colloquialism for : "a lot of') new cases. One such showed (S & I) and told (case book) of a R player straddling the sidelines and catching the free kick. The ruling then was : "If the airborne kick had broken the sideline plane when touched, it is considered KOB; if not,  it would be R's ball there touched." That case, as many accurate cases, have since disappeared as 20-30 new cases are added each year and we don't want a case book the size of NYC phone directory. IMHO, giving the ball to R at the spot of the touch without KOB or IP flags would be the fairest way if the OOB contact was unintentional.

Offline Ironhead17

  • *
  • Posts: 67
  • FAN REACTION: +3/-2
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2016, 12:01:53 PM »
We had a similar case last week where K was last to touch ball during an onside kick attempt. Went beyond 10 yds. before it was touched and untouched by R. White hat wobbled over and said we had a penalty as I marked the OOB spot. I agreed and dropped the flag. We're not dealing w/ IP at all here but you can't ignore the KOB.

Offline Ia-Ref

  • *
  • Posts: 25
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-3
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2016, 12:27:03 PM »
Back in 2000 we tweaked the KOB rule that used to read : " foul...if LAST TOUCHED by K" . This allowed a kick that was muffed by several opponents and was last touched by K before OOB to be a foul. With the new rule came a lobster trap full (colloquialism for : "a lot of') new cases. One such showed (S & I) and told (case book) of a R player straddling the sidelines and catching the free kick. The ruling then was : "If the airborne kick had broken the sideline plane when touched, it is considered KOB; if not,  it would be R's ball there touched." That case, as many accurate cases, have since disappeared as 20-30 new cases are added each year and we don't want a case book the size of NYC phone directory. IMHO, giving the ball to R at the spot of the touch without KOB or IP flags would be the fairest way if the OOB contact was unintentional.

Ralph, I believe you are referencing the following from 2007 (and others) CASE BOOK;

CAUSING  FREE KICK TO BE OUT OF BOUNDS
6.1.8 Situation C: (selecting only example "b")
R1 is running near a sideline as he attempts to catch a free kick in flight.
R1 has (b) one foot on the sideline, when he reaches through the plane of the sideline.  The ball bounces off his hands and lands out of bounds.
RULING: (b) since R1 is out of bounds when the ball was touched, the kicker has caused the ball to be out of bounds.

The problem with this example is that it does not say which way R1 is reaching and what side of the sideline the ball is when it is touched.
If R1 is oob and reaching into the field of play, then I maintain the kicker did not cause the kick to be oob.
If R1 was reaching for the ball after it crossed the sideline the kicker did cause it to be oob like the Case Book example.

Does it matter which side of the sideline the ball in flight is when it gets touched?
"Because you can referee wrong, make a mistake, but what you can not do is create your own sense of justice and, even worse, invent a very personal application of the rules."   Dutch legend (soccer coach) Johan Cruyff

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1161
  • FAN REACTION: +52/-21
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2016, 12:37:59 PM »
Back in 2000 we tweaked the KOB rule that used to read : " foul...if LAST TOUCHED by K" . This allowed a kick that was muffed by several opponents and was last touched by K before OOB to be a foul. With the new rule came a lobster trap full (colloquialism for : "a lot of') new cases. One such showed (S & I) and told (case book) of a R player straddling the sidelines and catching the free kick. The ruling then was : "If the airborne kick had broken the sideline plane when touched, it is considered KOB; if not,  it would be R's ball there touched." That case, as many accurate cases, have since disappeared as 20-30 new cases are added each year and we don't want a case book the size of NYC phone directory. IMHO, giving the ball to R at the spot of the touch without KOB or IP flags would be the fairest way if the OOB contact was unintentional.

Ralph,

Would it make sense to just add this sentence to the rule:

(Original)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:

(New)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R.  It is only a foul if the ball becomes out of bounds while on or above out of bounds territory. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:



Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2016, 12:44:17 PM »
Ralph, I believe you are referencing the following from 2007 (and others) CASE BOOK;

CAUSING  FREE KICK TO BE OUT OF BOUNDS
6.1.8 Situation C: (selecting only example "b")
R1 is running near a sideline as he attempts to catch a free kick in flight.
R1 has (b) one foot on the sideline, when he reaches through the plane of the sideline.  The ball bounces off his hands and lands out of bounds.
RULING: (b) since R1 is out of bounds when the ball was touched, the kicker has caused the ball to be out of bounds.

The problem with this example is that it does not say which way R1 is reaching and what side of the sideline the ball is when it is touched.
If R1 is oob and reaching into the field of play, then I maintain the kicker did not cause the kick to be oob.
If R1 was reaching for the ball after it crossed the sideline the kicker did cause it to be oob like the Case Book example.

Does it matter which side of the sideline the ball in flight is when it gets touched?
IMHO, it does. S & I 2003 p.40, with illustrated pics, sez' : (With R straddling the sideline) "..since the receiver touched the kick with the ball inside the sideline plane he is considered to have the caused the ball to be out of bounds. The ball will be put in play at the inbounds spot..."
Ralph,

Would it make sense to just add this sentence to the rule:

(Original)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:

(New)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R.  It is only a foul if the ball becomes out of bounds while on or above out of bounds territory. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:



Ralph,

Would it make sense to just add this sentence to the rule:

(Original)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:

(New)

ART. 8 . . . A free kick shall not be kicked out of bounds between the goal lines untouched inbounds by R.  It is only a foul if the ball becomes out of bounds while on or above out of bounds territory. If it is kicked out of bounds and R does not accept a penalty for kick-catch interference on the same kick as in 6-5-4, R has the following choices:



Yo, Bossman. Yes it would. Seems like a good proposal to add. Thanks

Offline refjimb

  • JimBLJ
  • *
  • Posts: 15
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2016, 11:02:28 AM »
Now I think that I have confused myself, so just want to clarify to see if I have the consensus right:

In the Packers game, they ruled (correctly apparently) that it was a KO OOB penalty.  I believe we are saying that in NFHS this would be an IP on the R player for going OOB and then touching the ball. 

What about a player who is straddling the sideline with one foot in and one foot out?  Is this where the location of the ball in relation to the SL come into play?

(Side note:  This would make sense as it is the same principle used when a ball is downed by K on a scrimmage kick where the player has his feet in the EZ, but downs the ball in the field of play)

Thanks!
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:05:00 AM by refjimb »

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2016, 11:25:54 AM »
IMHO, it would. While the supporting case back in 2000 no longer is published, there haven't been any rule changes that invalidate it. If R, who is OOB by rule, touches a kick that is still inbounds; it wouldn't seem fair ,to me, to rule that the kickers caused the kick to go OOB.

Online prab

  • *
  • Posts: 529
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-35
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2016, 11:43:31 AM »
The Wisconsin governing body (WIAA) just sent out an email to all officials regarding the Packer play in the OP.  The WIAA considers it to be Illegal Participation under NFHS rules.  They cite the same reasons as many have voiced in this thread. 

For historic reference, the Packers did this same thing in a game in 2011, with a similar ruling of KOB.

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Being out of bounds and touching ball inbounds
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2016, 11:51:11 AM »
The Wisconsin governing body (WIAA) just sent out an email to all officials regarding the Packer play in the OP.  The WIAA considers it to be Illegal Participation under NFHS rules.  They cite the same reasons as many have voiced in this thread. 

For historic reference, the Packers did this same thing in a game in 2011, with a similar ruling of KOB.
I thought it was only Coach B & the Pats that came up with stuff like that ;D!