Author Topic: My yearly attempt for a rules change  (Read 2157 times)

Offline AFOpie

  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
My yearly attempt for a rules change
« on: October 12, 2016, 03:21:22 PM »
During the play A88's helmet comes off (not by a foul) and must leave the game for a play. Team B calls a timeout for some reason. The next play after the time out Team A runs a pass play in which A88 catches a pass in the EZ. Ruling?

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1162
  • FAN REACTION: +52/-21
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2016, 03:22:20 PM »
I believe this is IP

Offline AFOpie

  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2016, 03:23:46 PM »
I saw rules change but more like an editorial change.

Offline AFOpie

  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2016, 03:24:09 PM »

Offline bossman72

  • *
  • Posts: 1162
  • FAN REACTION: +52/-21
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2016, 03:26:12 PM »
I guess 9-6-4b would not cover a player who's helmet came off...

It is IP:
b. If an injured player is not replaced for at least one down; unless the halftime or overtime intermission occurs.

Offline AFOpie

  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2016, 03:31:52 PM »
I guess 9-6-4b would not cover a player who's helmet came off...

It is IP:
b. If an injured player is not replaced for at least one down; unless the halftime or overtime intermission occurs.

Correct... which is why they just need to add that to 9-6-4b. There is no player designations for injured players or players who's helmets came off in previous play. However the IP rules specifically talks about injured players. They just need to add in 'player who's helmet came off during previous down'

Offline Rulesman

  • The Keeper of the Keys
  • Administrator
  • ***
  • Posts: 3835
  • FAN REACTION: +310/-238
  • Live like tomorrow never comes.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2016, 06:11:25 PM »
Good suggestion. There is a procedure to submit changes to the rules committee. Contact your state rules interpreter or see if Ralph will carry the banner for you.  pHiNzuP
"Gentlemen, we are going to relentlessly chase perfection, knowing full well we will not catch it, because nothing is perfect. But we are going to relentlessly chase it, because in the process we will catch excellence. I am not remotely interested in just being good."
- Vince Lombardi

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2016, 09:31:12 PM »
It is IP or illegal substitution. A player whose helmet comes off not because of a foul, must go out for one play unless its half time or overtime. Since he must go out for one play, he is not an eligible substitute for the play he must sit out. If he enters the field and is observed by the official before the snap, it is an illegal substitution. If he is not discovered and participates, it is IP.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2016, 08:10:19 AM »
Suggested rewording:

Quote
9-6-4b: [It is illegal participation] If a player who must be replaced for a reason listed in 3-5-10 (e.g. injury) is not replaced or re-enters the game before permitted to do so by that rule.

This way, if additional reasons for a player to be sent off are added (or removed) at a later date, we won't have the same problem again.

Offline GAHSUMPIRE

  • *
  • Posts: 562
  • FAN REACTION: +19/-3
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2016, 12:57:32 PM »
It is IP or illegal substitution. A player whose helmet comes off not because of a foul, must go out for one play unless its half time or overtime. Since he must go out for one play, he is not an eligible substitute for the play he must sit out. If he enters the field and is observed by the official before the snap, it is an illegal substitution. If he is not discovered and participates, it is IP.

The player whose helmet came off is not a substitute- one way or the other. He is still a player. I don't have my rule book handy so I may get the exact language wrong, but a substitute is a person who had not been a player. A player remains a player until he is substituted for. He has not been substituted for, so how can you have illegal substitution?

And, as AFOpie states, there is no rule book support for IP, though common sense would dictate that it is.

Offline sir55

  • *
  • Posts: 161
  • FAN REACTION: +10/-3
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2016, 01:22:26 PM »
You are correct, when the helmet comes off, he is not a substitute, he is a player. However, the rule requires that he go out 1 play. For that one play, he is not an eligible substitute. If you read the substitution rule, during any dead ball period, any number of eligible substitutes may enter, etc. The player whose helmet came off in the previous play is not an eligible substitute. If he enters during the one down in which he must sit out, he is an illegal substitute, hence the illegal substitution foul if observed before the snap. If he participates, he is illegally participating.

Offline bigjohn

  • *
  • Posts: 342
  • FAN REACTION: +21/-31
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2016, 01:33:28 PM »
do away with inside the 9 yard line rule, no one will call it and it is not necessary as IF. Just leave the IP rule in for deception

Offline TampaSteve

  • *
  • Posts: 1253
  • FAN REACTION: +12/-10
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2016, 01:11:06 PM »
notwithstanding whether it's IP or not: technically, it seems H/L should have caught this coming out of the timeout

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 494
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2016, 01:42:47 PM »
I once had a coach attempt to foil the rule, but it backfired on him.

The RB, #24, apparently had an issue with wearing a properly fitting helmet and it would come off quite regularly. Instead of making him adjust his helmet (which seems like the MUCH easier thing to do and better idea if you were at all concerned about your players safety), coach dressed two players in #24 of approximate same size/build.

Star player #24 would come off when his helmet came off, but then would be replaced with Substitute #24 -- or did he? The first such substitution caught my eye, but the coach immediately pointed out #24 on the sideline. I let it go, but I was suspicious.

Later in the quarter however, their plan fell apart the next time #24 lost his helmet. See... the field was a bit muddy and Sub #24 never actually got in the game, so his pristine white uniform was a bit of a giveaway when compared to muddy, grass stained Star Player #24...

I was more amazed at the level of effort that went in to avoid tightening a chin strap.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2016, 07:31:55 AM »
I once had a coach attempt to foil the rule, but it backfired on him.

The RB, #24, apparently had an issue with wearing a properly fitting helmet and it would come off quite regularly. Instead of making him adjust his helmet (which seems like the MUCH easier thing to do and better idea if you were at all concerned about your players safety), coach dressed two players in #24 of approximate same size/build.

Star player #24 would come off when his helmet came off, but then would be replaced with Substitute #24 -- or did he? The first such substitution caught my eye, but the coach immediately pointed out #24 on the sideline. I let it go, but I was suspicious.

Later in the quarter however, their plan fell apart the next time #24 lost his helmet. See... the field was a bit muddy and Sub #24 never actually got in the game, so his pristine white uniform was a bit of a giveaway when compared to muddy, grass stained Star Player #24...

I was more amazed at the level of effort that went in to avoid tightening a chin strap.

I really hope this earned the coach a flag for UNS...

Offline Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2469
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2016, 08:53:47 AM »
I really hope this earned the coach a flag for UNS...
I hope the coach got much more.....

IMHO, the brain is second only to the heart in organs of importance (the prom queen's divorced mom >:D may disagree >:D).

 THE HELMET PROTECTS THE SKULL....
      THE SKULL PROTECTS THE BRAIN....

THE NFHS BELIEVES SAFETY IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RULE IN OUR BOOK...
  1935 - HELMETS REQUIRED;
                                1955 - URGED THE USE OF FACE MASKS & MOUTH PROTECTORS;
                                1973 - CHIN STRAPS REQUIRED;
                                1980 - NOCSAE SEAL REQUIRED;
                                2006 - CHIN STRAP NEEDS 4 SNAPS;
                                2012 - MUST LEAVE FOR A PLAY IF HELMET COMES OFF.

AN ATTEMPT TO "GAME THE SYSTEM" ON A SAFETY ISSUE (AS IN OP) SHOULD BE DELT WITH SEVERELY...

THAT'S MY OPINION, I WELCOME YOURS....
   

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 494
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: My yearly attempt for a rules change
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2016, 09:04:27 AM »
I really hope this earned the coach a flag for UNS...

Happy ending -- coach wanted to try it again, but realized he shouldn't. I could see the gears working though. The third -- and final -- time his helmet came loose, I told the coach it seemed like there was a problem with his helmet and it should be fixed before he can come back.

I didn't personally see what they did, but since it stayed on the rest of the game, I assume they fixed it.

I believe Sub #24 did get a few plays in during garbage time too.