Author Topic: Illegal snap ? (Read 29659 times)

Aussie-Zebra · « **on:** October 23, 2016, 12:58:09 PM »

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=17858434

Did he lift the ball before he threw it to the passer ?

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #1 on:** October 23, 2016, 05:12:00 PM »

Judgment call here but I would say no. Not a perfectly smooth and continuous backward pass but pretty close.

Etref · « **Reply #2 on:** October 23, 2016, 05:21:11 PM »

Yes he put picked it up, not one continuous motion.

Sonofanump · « **Reply #3 on:** October 23, 2016, 10:23:50 PM »

First thought it is not a legal snap. Looking forward to NCAA rules meeting this week.

TxBJ · « **Reply #4 on:** October 24, 2016, 08:52:41 AM »

Quote from: Sonofanump on October 23, 2016, 10:23:50 PM

First thought it is not a legal snap. Looking forward to NCAA rules meeting this week.

Does anyone know if that is what the discussion and flag pick-up was about? I didn't see where the flag came from.

mishatx · « **Reply #5 on:** October 24, 2016, 10:03:18 AM »

My first thought was whether 46 had established himself as the snapper before the shift, and if so, was he on the end of the line at that time? I can't really tell from the end zone view.

bossman72 · « **Reply #6 on:** October 24, 2016, 11:04:24 AM »

Quote from: mishatx on October 24, 2016, 10:03:18 AM

My first thought was whether 46 had established himself as the snapper before the shift, and if so, was he on the end of the line at that time? I can't really tell from the end zone view.

Yeah, it was close. Looks like he addresses the ball as the shift was happening. Had he addressed the ball before, it would have been an illegal formation foul.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #7 on:** October 24, 2016, 11:49:31 AM »

Again, I think it's very close, both the formation and the snap. I guess that if we follow RR's guidance (repeated again just recently) that "trick plays" should be officiated 100% by the book, then we could flag this, but it is very close to 100% OK in my opinion.

Kalle · « **Reply #8 on:** October 24, 2016, 12:14:21 PM »

Also, they can't have any numbering exceptions in the final formation, as they are not in a scrimmage kick formation.

Aussie-Zebra · « **Reply #9 on:** October 24, 2016, 03:04:32 PM »

Quote from: TxBJ on October 24, 2016, 08:52:41 AM

Does anyone know if that is what the discussion and flag pick-up was about? I didn't see where the flag came from.

The Head lineman

copedaddy · « **Reply #10 on:** October 24, 2016, 06:28:24 PM »

Shot just before the shift

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bossman72 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 25, 2016, 08:33:58 AM »

Quote from: Kalle on October 24, 2016, 12:14:21 PM

Also, they can't have any numbering exceptions in the final formation, as they are not in a scrimmage kick formation.

Good catch. Left end is #77, so they do have 5 players 50-79

Skuza · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2016, 01:42:02 PM »

Illegal formation.. Snapper is on the ball and covered in a kick formation ( snapper is established )This a kick formation from start to finish. can not uncover the snapper. rule 7 art 4 c .... Please tell me what I am missing. Don't care about the numbering.

dvasques · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2016, 04:20:24 PM »

Is it obvious that a kick will be attempted from the final formation?

TxSkyBolt · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2016, 11:53:08 PM »

Quote from: Skuza on October 28, 2016, 01:42:02 PM

Illegal formation.. Snapper is on the ball and covered in a kick formation ( snapper is established )This a kick formation from start to finish. can not uncover the snapper. rule 7 art 4 c .... Please tell me what I am missing. Don't care about the numbering.

7-4-c??

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#92 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2016, 06:47:48 AM »

I suppose he meant 7-1-4-a-5-c.

bossman72 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 31, 2016, 10:16:13 AM »

Quote from: Skuza on October 28, 2016, 01:42:02 PM

Illegal formation.. Snapper is on the ball and covered in a kick formation ( snapper is established )This a kick formation from start to finish. can not uncover the snapper. rule 7 art 4 c .... Please tell me what I am missing. Don't care about the numbering.

You SHOULD care about the numbering, because the rule you quoted doesn't apply unless there are less than 5 players 50-79

Skuza · « **Reply #17 on:** November 04, 2016, 02:20:23 PM »

You all had me going BUT>>>>>>I have checked ILLEGAL SNAP !!!!! this is a kick formation you CANNOT UN COVER #46.

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #18 on:** November 04, 2016, 03:42:34 PM »

Quote from: Skuza on November 04, 2016, 02:20:23 PM

You all had me going BUT>>>>>>I have checked ILLEGAL SNAP !!!!! this is a kick formation you CANNOT UN COVER #46.

Based on what rule? Seriously.

DallasLJ · « **Reply #19 on:** November 05, 2016, 11:22:06 AM »

Quote from: Andrew McCarthy on November 04, 2016, 03:42:34 PM

Based on what rule? Seriously.

As discussed earlier in the thread -- Rule 7-1-4-5-a thru c. Once the Snapper is established, any exception to the 50-79 numbering rule is locked in and these exceptions may not be on the end of the line. So, here, the Snapper himself was an exception, #46. When he was established, he was covered up by a lineman. That locked him as an ineligible receiver. Then the 2 outside guys went in motion out to the right side of the formation, leaving #46 on the end of the line. This make an illegal formation at the snap. Then when #46 (Snapper) went downfield, you had a second foul and then when he caught the ball you had a third foul.

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #20 on:** November 05, 2016, 12:27:56 PM »

But that's the question - Did the snapper actually establish himself? He didn't actually place his hands below his knees or touch the ball before the shift. Exactly when on a play like this (with numbering exception players "in the middle") have the numbering exceptions been established by rule? Don't the five interior linemen have to go into a three point stance or at least the snapper has to establish himself by actually touching (or simulate touching) the ball?

copedaddy · « **Reply #21 on:** November 05, 2016, 01:43:18 PM »

From FR39

Snapper
ARTICLE 8. The snapper is the player who snaps the ball. He is established
as the snapper when he takes a position behind the ball and touches or
simulates (hand ~~at or below his knees) touching the ball (Rule 7-1-3).~~

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #22 on:** November 05, 2016, 04:33:48 PM »

So we have our answer then. 46 has established himself as the snapper when he moves his left hand from his thigh, below his knee, then to the ball. At that time he is the middle man of 5 interior linemen and by definition a numbering exception. By rule therefore this is a foul. The remaining 4 interior linemen actually leave after 46 became the snapper by rule.

That being said, the timing here is close, but stop action frame by frame IMO makes it clear he's the snapper before the other linemen leave and we've always been advised that on trick plays when in question it's a foul. IMO he needed to wait until he was actually on the end of the line before he started his motion down to the ball.

Andrew McCarthy · « **Reply #23 on:** November 06, 2016, 05:46:29 PM »

Why are you calling him an exception when they have 5 guys numbered 50 through 79 on the line of scrimmage?

NVFOA_Ump · « **Reply #24 on:** November 06, 2016, 07:34:54 PM »

Because of the wording of the rule:

(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established.
He's 46 and an interior lineman by position and a numbering exception when the snapper (himself) is established.
(b) Any and all such numbering-exception players must be on the line and may not be on the end of the line. Otherwise, Team A commits a foul for an illegal formation.
When he was established as the snapper, he also was established as a numbering exception - he cannot on the end of the line - illegal formation.
(c) Any and all such players are exceptions to the numbering rule throughout the down and remain ineligible receivers unless they become eligible under Rule 7-3-5 (forward pass touched by an official or a Team B player).
He's an ineligible receiver by rule for the entire down (a second foul to be overly technical) since he was downfield.

In my opinion in the original pre-snap alignment he's the center of 5 linemen with the remaining 6 players in the backfield. Prior to the shift he is established as a numbering exception and the snapper and his status is "locked" for the entire down.