Illegal snap ?

[Andrew McCarthy]

You didn't quote the entire rule!  They have 5 guys 50-79 so these conditions don't apply.

[NVFOA_Ump]

You didn't quote the entire rule!  They have 5 guys 50-79 so these conditions don't apply.

Don't need to. The "extra linemen" are not on the line in the initial formation prior to the shift, they're in the backfield, so at that point in time by definition they are not linemen - not until after they shift, therefore (a) applies to the linemen who are actually on the line:

(a) Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position become exceptions to the numbering rule when the snapper is established.

Where is number 46 positioned when the snapper is established?  He's one of the "Any and all linemen not numbered 50-79 who are ineligible receiver(s) by position" who becomes an exception to the numbering rule.  Once he's a numbering exception he must remain an interior lineman.

[Kalle]

Don't need to. The "extra linemen" are not on the line in the initial formation prior to the shift, they're in the backfield, so at that point in time by definition they are not linemen - not until after they shift, therefore (a) applies to the linemen who are actually on the line:

I disagree. In my opinion, if at the snap team A meets the requirements in rule 7-1-4-a-3 at the snap, rule 7-1-4-a-5 is not applied at all, thus making it legal for team A to shift from a rule 7-1-4-a-5 formation into a 7-1-4-a-3 formation, with all the usual players being eligible, no matter where they were positioned in the first formation.

[NVFOA_Ump]

We'll disagree then.  I believe that there is a clear and valid reason why the numbering exceptions are determined at the same time the snapper is determined.  Additionally, if that were not the case, the rule would simply state that the numbering exceptions are determined at the snap - it doesn't.

[Andrew McCarthy]

Maybe I'm looking at a different play.  I see 5 guys numbered 50-79 on the line before they shift, 3 guys to 46's left and 2 guys to his right.  There is no numbering exception at all on this play.

[NVFOA_Ump]

As I noted earlier. In my opinion they are in a common "wedge" formation used for field goals and extra points that we typically let go if the ball is kicked.  I have the 2 " ends" on each side actually in the backfield (making 6 in the backfield pre-snap: kicker, holder, and both players left side and right side).  No way any of the 4 of them are "breaking the waistline of the snapper".  Again, if they are going to run a trick play that is based on rules interpretations it has to be 100% by the book.  At least 1 of the "wing" players need to be up on the line to have 5 "linemen" numbered 50-79 when the snapper is determined.

[DallasLJ]

Looked at the play again -- and now thinking this is legal.  The scrimmage kick formation definition only applies "at the snap".  If, at the snap, you have a scrimmage kick formation, then all the eligibility / numbering exceptions apply.

  Here, though, they ARE NOT in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.  They move out of a FG scrimmage kick formation (7 yards deep), to a punt formation (no holder).  Notice the kicker moves up -- and at the snap he is 9 yards (not 10) behind the LOS.  Therefore, this is not a SKF by rule.  Thus, no the requirements / limitations of 7-1-4-a-5 do not apply and instead the normal requirements of 7-1-4-a-3 apply.  So long as Team A has 5 players 50-79 on the line out there to the left of the formation, then this is a legal play -- A46 is legal both by number and position (end).

[Morningrise]

As I noted earlier. In my opinion they are in a common "wedge" formation used for field goals and extra points that we typically let go if the ball is kicked.

I don't let illegal formations go just because there's a kicker and holder. If the ends are slightly off the line, it's one warning; substantially off the line and I'm flagging it.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Looked at the play again -- and now thinking this is legal.  The scrimmage kick formation definition only applies "at the snap".  If, at the snap, you have a scrimmage kick formation, then all the eligibility / numbering exceptions apply.

  Here, though, they ARE NOT in a scrimmage kick formation at the snap.  They move out of a FG scrimmage kick formation (7 yards deep), to a punt formation (no holder).  Notice the kicker moves up -- and at the snap he is 9 yards (not 10) behind the LOS.  Therefore, this is not a SKF by rule.  Thus, no the requirements / limitations of 7-1-4-a-5 do not apply and instead the normal requirements of 7-1-4-a-3 apply.  So long as Team A has 5 players 50-79 on the line out there to the left of the formation, then this is a legal play -- A46 is legal both by number and position (end).

But at the time we had to determine numbering exceptions they were in a scrimmage kick formation, and the rule clearly states that once a numbering exception is identified it applies for the entire down.  I don't see a shift after a numbering exception being identified as eliminating the restricted status.  The rule doesn't say it no longer applies if team A shifts out a SK formation.  Otherwise what purpose does the wording locking the numbering exceptions when the snapper touches the ball?  The rule would simply use the snap as the determining time - it doesn't.

[DallasLJ]

But at the time we had to determine numbering exceptions they were in a scrimmage kick formation, and the rule clearly states that once a numbering exception is identified it applies for the entire down.  I don't see a shift after a numbering exception being identified as eliminating the restricted status.  The rule doesn't say it no longer applies if team A shifts out a SK formation.  Otherwise what purpose does the wording locking the numbering exceptions when the snapper touches the ball?  The rule would simply use the snap as the determining time - it doesn't.

  Except that you are missing the key fact that it all only applies if it is a SKF AT THE SNAP.  Rule 7-1-4-a-5 (numbering exception rule) starts the entire section with the foundational premise of "in a scrimmage kick formation AT THE SNAP . . . "

  Also, looking in Rule 2 for the very definition of Scrimmage Kick Formation, 2-16-10-b states that "If Team A is in a scrimmage kick formation AT THE SNAP, any action by Team A during the down is deemed to be from a scrimmage kick formation."

  So, as long as Team A gets out of the formation AT THE SNAP -- it is a normal scrimmage play -- with usual rules

[NVFOA_Ump]

So you're telling us that with the "kicker" just short of ten yards back that the defense and us can now "erase" the numbering exception that was established when 46 touched the ball?  I'm not buying that; given what that means there would be no repeatable and reliable way to officiate this play.  Example - the "kicker" is 11 yards behind the LOS and while calling signals takes 2 steps forward and stops just before the snap?  Sorry, but that doesn't work in my book and trashes the whole reason for putting in a way and time to identify the numbering exceptions.

Too many "close" calls here:

1.  The 5 51-79 are not linemen in 1st formation
2.  Shift starts after the snapper is established
3.  "Kicker" is only 9 yards back after shift

The rules are written to allow both team B and the officials to identify eligibles early enough to respond and officiate correctly - that didn't happen here in my opinion.

[Kalle]

Otherwise what purpose does the wording locking the numbering exceptions when the snapper touches the ball?  The rule would simply use the snap as the determining time - it doesn't.

It serves the purpose that team A cannot switch a lineman into a back and a back into a lineman (or change an interior lineman to the end of the line) after the snapper has touched the ball, thus allowing the defense at least some time to react into the team A alignment as to who are eligible receivers.

[DallasLJ]

So you're telling us that with the "kicker" just short of ten yards back that the defense and us can now "erase" the numbering exception that was established when 46 touched the ball?  I'm not buying that; given what that means there would be no repeatable and reliable way to officiate this play.  Example - the "kicker" is 11 yards behind the LOS and while calling signals takes 2 steps forward and stops just before the snap?  Sorry, but that doesn't work in my book and trashes the whole reason for putting in a way and time to identify the numbering exceptions.

Too many "close" calls here:

1.  The 5 51-79 are not linemen in 1st formation
2.  Shift starts after the snapper is established
3.  "Kicker" is only 9 yards back after shift

The rules are written to allow both team B and the officials to identify eligibles early enough to respond and officiate correctly - that didn't happen here in my opinion.

  Hopefully they discuss this play with you pregame so that you make sure they executed it properly -- but I'm sorry - we are supposed to "know the rules" -- and that includes where the Kicker is.  I went through this earlier in the year.  Some of our local teams still line their Punter up at 8 - 9 yards.  We have discussed with them that if the Punter lines up short of 10 yards -- the Snapper is not given the 1 second protection.  We actually devised a signal between R an U if Punter is in short formation to confirm that Snapper is Not protected.

  Here, the Coach seems to know and understand the Rules -- and you are going to penalize him because he runs it perfectly -- but we got confused on the formation? 

[TxBJ]

I don't let illegal formations go just because there's a kicker and holder. If the ends are slightly off the line, it's one warning; substantially off the line and I'm flagging it.

Agree. Linemen cheating back on scrimmage kick plays is a significant advantage.

[TxSkyBolt]

  As discussed earlier in the thread -- Rule 7-1-4-5-a thru c.  Once the Snapper is established, any exception to the 50-79 numbering rule is locked in and these exceptions may not be on the end of the line.  So, here, the Snapper himself was an exception, #46.  When he was established, he was covered up by a lineman.  That locked him as an ineligible receiver.  Then the 2 outside guys went in motion out to the right side of the formation, leaving #46 on the end of the line.  This make an illegal formation at the snap.  Then when #46 (Snapper) went downfield, you had a second foul and then when he caught the ball you had a third foul.

But the snapper was never established.



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[NVFOA_Ump]

But the snapper was never established.
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The snapper (#46) clearly was established when his hands went down to the ball while he was in the middle of the line just prior to the shift.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Agree. Linemen cheating back on scrimmage kick plays is a significant advantage.

I agree 100% but we see lots of them on TV on Saturdays.  Guards with their feet well behind the center, tackles a bit further back again from the guard and the ends yet a bit further back from the tackles.

[DallasLJ]

But the snapper was never established.



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  Why would you say that?  #46 is clearly the Snapper -- Rule 2-27-8 -- "takes a position behind the ball and touches or simulates [hand at knees or below] touching the ball.  Before the shift happens you can see #46 behind the ball with his forearms and knees and arms below the knees.  As he goes down to put his hands on the ball the line all shift out either right or left.