Author Topic: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)  (Read 2512 times)

Offline goodgrr

  • Roger Goodgroves
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-12
  • We are always learning
Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« on: November 08, 2016, 06:43:57 AM »
https://www.clippituser.tv/c/xpngg

I expect Shearman may be facing a fine for this one!

For the Bills the flag was for offside and no unnecessary roughness call.  The kicker because he received treatment had to go off for a play (Bills spiked the ball to buy him back in as they had no timeouts remaining).  Good job it wasn't 4th down!


Offline goodgrr

  • Roger Goodgroves
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-12
  • We are always learning
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2016, 06:46:42 AM »
Forgot to add, after the offside was marked off the umpire stood over the ball following the spike until there were five seconds left on the play clock, and the Bills were flagged for delay of game.

As you can imagine their was much heat from the Bills sideline.

Offline bbeagle

  • *
  • Posts: 410
  • FAN REACTION: +5/-27
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2016, 07:48:44 AM »
I can't believe these are NFL referees.

They made many mistakes:
1) After the offsides call on Sherman, the officials looked to each other for the call, and nobody watched the continuation and the Sherman hit.
2) The play clock started at :40 after the spike, but the officials were huddling, and standing over the ball discussing whatever?!?! and then moved away from the ball at :05. The Bills were ready to hike the ball around :20 and were just standing around waiting for the officials.

After the umpire left the ball at :05, the ball was marked ready for play around :02, the play clock went down to :00 and stayed there for 10 seconds until the Bills snapped the ball and kicked the field goal.

I have no doubt the back judge looked up at the clock and saw :00 just as the ball was snapped and called the delay of game. He didn't look when it actually hit :00 because he wasn't paying attention yet - no reason to - the ball was 'just' marked ready for play.

Very poor officiating, and I see it every week. Our high school officials don't goof up like NFL refs do.

.... And the game came down to that. If the FG was allowed to stand, the Bills would have kicked the game tying field goal at the end to go to overtime 31-31.

The NFL needs to have some sort of review process for things 'out of the ordinary' where they can correct these errors. It's a joke right now.


Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2016, 01:54:07 PM »
Here are some of my thoughts on this play from an NFHS perspective (I don't work NFL or NCAA rules and so can't speak to them):

(1) There is no effort to avoid contact with the kicker - if anything, he's headed to the kicker first, makes a feeble last-second swipe at the ball with his hand, and executes a beautiful cross-body block that is straight out of pro wrestling. Were it a live play, this would be RTK regardless of whether or not he touched the ball.

(2) Offsides is not automatically a dead-ball foul in the NFL, but it still seems like a very late whistle (nothing audible until AFTER he's already made the hit!). I would expect that we would have one much faster at our level.

(3) Given (1) above, there's really no debate, but I think even without that judgment we should have a DB PF here. He takes three steps before the snap (even if he's focused on the ball, he's got to see it arrive and know he's WAY early) and then four more steps before he hits the kicker.

(4) I find the combination of (1) and (3) sufficient to support a flagrant foul and DQ here. I know that was never going to happen in the NFL. I'm not certain I would make that call in real time. But from the comfort of my desk, I find this a pretty egregious hit that merits watching the rest of the game from the bench.

(5) Despite the trainer being on the field, it does not appear that the potential injury to the kicker delayed the ready-for-play (they hadn't even announced the foul yet) or caused the clock to stop. So under NFHS rules, I see no reason for the kicker to need to come out.

(6) Most of the time, we don't have a visible play clock, so we would never have a DoG foul on the fourth-down attempt; even if it did, it wouldn't have started until the RFP, which wouldn't happen until after the U was out of the way. I believe both Anderson and Blandino have already acknowledged that the play clock should have been reset.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2016, 01:58:50 PM »
Very poor officiating, and I see it every week. Our high school officials don't goof up like NFL refs do.

So certain of that are you? The level of scrutiny we need to deal with is trivial compared to them. How often do you get to review film of your own games?

Also, their game moves so much faster than ours... I know that a certain amount of confidence ("I could do that given the chance...") comes with the territory. But really, shouldn't we, of all people, be cutting them some slack? Yes, they screwed up this play. Still pretty sure I would have a worse season than any of them if I were in their spot.

Offline ciba

  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2016, 05:04:59 PM »
(1) There is no effort to avoid contact with the kicker - if anything, he's headed to the kicker first, makes a feeble last-second swipe at the ball with his hand, and executes a beautiful cross-body block that is straight out of pro wrestling. Were it a live play, this would be RTK regardless of whether or not he touched the ball.

After years of lurking, I finally registered to ask a question on this one: Was he even a "kicker" by rule? Doesn't the rulebook definition of kicker require a legal Dropkick, Placekick, or Punt? How can you have a placekick with a loose ball?

Offline goodgrr

  • Roger Goodgroves
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-12
  • We are always learning
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2016, 02:55:18 AM »
My understanding is that as the play never happened (i.e. shut down before the kick) it couldn't be RTK just an unnecessary roughness as there is no kicker until a kick is made.


Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2016, 01:21:29 PM »
After years of lurking, I finally registered to ask a question on this one: Was he even a "kicker" by rule? Doesn't the rulebook definition of kicker require a legal Dropkick, Placekick, or Punt? How can you have a placekick with a loose ball?

The ball isn't loose - it is held in place on the ground by the holder when he kicks it.

It is, however, a dead ball because of the pre-snap foul. Obviously, you can't have a legal kick on a dead ball; thus you can't have a kicker, nor RTK. This is why I said:

Were it a live play, this would be RTK

As it is, all you can have is a dead-ball personal foul (possibly flagrant).

As a side note, if (in NFHS) we did have a DB PF here, we would mark off a total of 20 yards - 5 for the encroachment, followed by 15 for the PF.

Offline Welpe

  • *
  • Posts: 1853
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-11
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2016, 02:43:37 AM »
Our high school officials don't goof up like NFL refs do.

You don't watch enough film of high school games then. Now add 30+ HD camera angles and see how you do.

I can't believe I actually read that on here.  yEs:
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 02:45:47 AM by Welpe »

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2016, 05:03:29 AM »
As I understand the RTK call in the NFL, it really has to be on the plant foot. The contact here seems to be on the kicking foot, so at best it could have been running into.

What the R and U were huddling for before the delay of game situation, I have no idea. In NCAA the play clock should have been reset to 25 after R and U broke their huddle with the ball ready for play with less than 25s on the play clock. Don't know if NFL has a similar provision.

Offline APG

  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • FAN REACTION: +1/-1
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2016, 05:12:19 AM »
As I understand the RTK call in the NFL, it really has to be on the plant foot. The contact here seems to be on the kicking foot, so at best it could have been running into.

What the R and U were huddling for before the delay of game situation, I have no idea. In NCAA the play clock should have been reset to 25 after R and U broke their huddle with the ball ready for play with less than 25s on the play clock. Don't know if NFL has a similar provision.

Ball was dead so RTK is out the window.

Offline Kalle

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 2716
  • FAN REACTION: +98/-33
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2016, 06:53:16 AM »
Ball was dead so RTK is out the window.

Yup, and I'd guess that NFL follows the same rule of thumb as NCAA that any DB action is ignored except for personal fouls, and running into the kicker is not a PF.

Offline goodgrr

  • Roger Goodgroves
  • *
  • Posts: 273
  • FAN REACTION: +8/-12
  • We are always learning
Re: Bills Vs Seahawks MNF (Shearman unnecessary roughness no call)
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2016, 03:19:20 AM »
In the latest Media Video, Blandino covers this in detail. http://operations.nfl.com/the-officials/inside-nfl-gameday-central/media-officiating-videos/

Blandino explained that Sherman would have been flagged for roughing the kicker, if the play hadn’t been whistled dead. Sherman touched the ball just before it was kicked,

“Touching the ball doesn’t negate roughing the kicker,” Blandino said, adding that the roughing the kicker is avoided only if the defender hits the kicker on the follow through after blocking a ball in flight.

Because the play was whistled dead, Sherman should have been flagged for unnecessary roughness.