Va Tech vs. Arkansas punt play

[6310 Forever]

Does anybody have a clip of the punt in the Belk Bowl that ultimately went to review?  It's a great teaching play.

[RedTD]

And the one where the runner fumbles and a TB was ruled? Both would be illustrative.

[timhedge]

Punt play video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyA5NG-bPvA


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[timhedge]

PF - Touchback play:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnJHtrown7s


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[TXMike]

http://www.footballzebras.com/2016/12/30/belk-bowl-crew-reverses-entire-play-in-replay-review/   Good summary of the IW play

[6310 Forever]

Thank you for posting, Tim.

[Legacy Zebra]

On the touchback play, they got that part right, but missed the penalty enforcement. It should have been half the distance from the end of the run which would be the spot of the fumble. Instead, they enforced it from the previous spot.

[Timer]

On the touchback play, they got that part right, but missed the penalty enforcement. It should have been half the distance from the end of the run which would be the spot of the fumble. Instead, they enforced it from the previous spot.

Not sure if "touchback" was the correct call.  It was a forward fumble OB as ball crossed the sideline and went outside the pylon before landing OB and then coming back into the EZ.  Either way the enforcement was from the wrong spot.

[Legacy Zebra]

For it not to be a touchback, the entire ball would have had to be outside the entire pylon. If any part of the ball goes over the pylon, it's a touchback. Based on the high angle view, I would say that the ball went over the pylon.

[NVFOA_Ump]

For it not to be a touchback, the entire ball would have had to be outside the entire pylon. If any part of the ball goes over the pylon, it's a touchback. Based on the high angle view, I would say that the ball went over the pylon.

Is that correct?  The rules state that the pylon is OB and to be considered in the EZ the loose ball must actually touch the pylon (Rule 4.2.3).  If it goes over the pylon without touching it isn't it correctly marked OB just before the goal line?

[Legacy Zebra]

Look at 2-12-2. The goal line includes the pylons and the entire goal line is in the end zone. If the ball goes over the pylon, it has crossed the goal line.

[Kalle]

Slightly off the topic but, where is the ball spotted in the field of play? At the spot where the ball's outside edge is just over the sideline, or the spot where the entire ball is over the sideline? I couldn't find an A.R. clarifying this. Usually there is little difference, but there might be a LTG issue sometimes.

3/10 at A-30. A33 runs to A-50 where he fumbles near the sideline. A88 bats the grounded ball high and backwards at A-50 to prevent B55 from recovering the ball. The ball goes almost straight towards team A sideline. The first part of the ball is over the sideline at A-45 and the entire ball is over the sideline from A-35. The ball lands out of bounds at A-25. 1/10@A-45 or 4/5@A-35?

[Curious]

Not sure if "touchback" was the correct call.  It was a forward fumble OB as ball crossed the sideline and went outside the pylon before landing OB and then coming back into the EZ.  Either way the enforcement was from the wrong spot.

On the touchback play, they got that part right, but missed the penalty enforcement. It should have been half the distance from the end of the run which would be the spot of the fumble. Instead, they enforced it from the previous spot.

The way I read 10-2-2d-1b, the highlighted comments above are correct.  The end of the run was the spot where the ball was fumbled...right?

[bama_stripes]

Good summary of the IW play

I don't know the NCAA requirements for PSK enforcement.  Does it make a difference where/when the hold occurred?

[JasonTX]

I don't know the NCAA requirements for PSK enforcement.  Does it make a difference where/when the hold occurred?

It only matters when.  A couple of years ago it did matter but the rules were changed.  Previously the foul had to be more than 3 yards down field and foul could be at anytime after the snap.  Not anymore. 

Here are the requirements.

Postscrimmage kick enforcement applies only to fouls by team B during a scrimmage kick and only under the following conditions.

1.  The kick is not during a try, a successful field goal, or in an extra period.
2.  The ball crosses the neutral zone.
3.  The foul occurs before the end of the kick.
4.  Team B will next put the ball in play

[timhedge]

Thank you for posting, Tim.

No problem!


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[bama_stripes]

It only matters when.  A couple of years ago it did matter but the rules were changed.  Previously the foul had to be more than 3 yards down field and foul could be at anytime after the snap.  Not anymore. 

Here are the requirements.

Postscrimmage kick enforcement applies only to fouls by team B during a scrimmage kick and only under the following conditions.

1.  The kick is not during a try, a successful field goal, or in an extra period.
2.  The ball crosses the neutral zone.
3.  The foul occurs before the end of the kick.
4.  Team B will next put the ball in play

So on this play, assuming the hold on the gunner happened immediately after the snap, they (eventually) got the enforcement correct?

[TXMike]

Hold did not have to be immediate, could have  been anytime during this down as the only play during the down was a kick play.  The only issue, still unresolved, is whether the IR rule should have overridden the IW rule.

[Kalle]

Hold did not have to be immediate, could have  been anytime during this down as the only play during the down was a kick play.  The only issue, still unresolved, is whether the IR rule should have overridden the IW rule.

A.R. 10-2-3-VII clarifies that a foul before the kicker kicks the ball does not qualify for PSKE. I think most supervisors want the fouls against the gunners to be enforced as PSKE, though, even if they technically might happen immediately after the snap and thus before the kick.

[NVFOA_Ump]

Look at 2-12-2. The goal line includes the pylons and the entire goal line is in the end zone. If the ball goes over the pylon, it has crossed the goal line.

While Rule 2-12-2 is very specific that it "includes the pylons.", Rule 4.2.3, the "Loose ball out of bounds rule"  then adds to that to say that if a loose ball touches the pylon it is considered OB in the EZ.  If the ball goes over part of the pylon without touching it then those two rules taken together to me say that the ball is OB outside of the EZ since it did not "touch the pylon".

[bama_stripes]

Hold did not have to be immediate, could have  been anytime during this down as the only play during the down was a kick play.  The only issue, still unresolved, is whether the IR rule should have overridden the IW rule.

Is the issue that IR could have (should have?) awarded possession to B, thus allowing PSK enforcement?

[NVFOA_Ump]

Is the issue that IR could have (should have?) awarded possession to B, thus allowing PSK enforcement?

I believe so.  Rule 12 pretty clearly gives IR the guidance to "get it right" on an IW play like this one. The keys are "indisputable video evidence", "clear recovery", and "immediate continuing action" which I believe were all satisfied here, but in the end it is still a judgment call by the IR official.

Reviewable plays - Rule 12.3.3

d. Loose ball ruled dead, or live ball ruled dead in possession of a ball carrier when the clear recovery of a loose ball occurs in the immediate continuing action.
1. If the ball is ruled dead and the replay official does not have indisputable video evidence as to which team recovers, the deadball ruling stands.
2. If the replay official rules that the ball was not dead, it belongs to the recovering team at the spot of the recovery and any advance is nullified.

[JasonTX]

While Rule 2-12-2 is very specific that it "includes the pylons.", Rule 4.2.3, the "Loose ball out of bounds rule"  then adds to that to say that if a loose ball touches the pylon it is considered OB in the EZ.  If the ball goes over part of the pylon without touching it then those two rules taken together to me say that the ball is OB outside of the EZ since it did not "touch the pylon".

Where is the most forward point of the ball when it crosses the sideline?

[bossman72]

3.  The foul occurs before the end of the kick.

With the rule change, the foul actually has to occur DURING the kick (ball is in the air).

[JasonTX]

With the rule change, the foul actually has to occur DURING the kick (ball is in the air).

Yes, that's what I posted from the rule book.  This is just one of the requirements.  It has to be before the kick ends as well.