Author Topic: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman  (Read 3147 times)

Offline Ralph Damren

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"O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« on: March 07, 2017, 08:18:58 AM »
We've batted around captains & penalty enforcement, captains and coin toss, etc. considerably. Here's the framework of my dealings with captains and I will look forward to hearing yours......

I. Pregame meeting w/coaches
  A. Get numbers of all captains
  B. Get name of speaking captain - remember and use it.

II. Coin toss
  A. Have both speaking captains nearest to you.
  B. Ask visiting capt. to call before toss- ump listens in.
  C. Ask winning capt. : "Do you want to D-E-F-E-R ??"
    1. If yes, ask losing capt. : "Do you want T-H-E  B-A-L-L?"
    2. If no, then ask : "I assume you want the ball." - Usual answer : "AYUH, 'spec so""
  D. To captain with choice of ends : "Which way do you want to kickoff?"

III. Penalty Enforcement
  A. When choice is obvious; just inform, don't ask (NFHS Manual ,p.49 I- A 5 & 6)
  B. Go slow if choice is not obvious, bring captain within earshot of coach for assistance.
  C. If double foul w/COP or enforcement with compulated ending, involve both captains.

IV. When the captain can designate spot of ball
  A. For a try & OT I'll usually ask : "Captain, where do you want to spot the ball?" This erases the
      confusion of spotting in middle and having to move or if asked after RFP.
  B. For a TB or after a fair catch, I'll spot in middle unless asked.
  C. For a kickoff or after a safety, the kicker will usually make the request.

V. After a score, don't ask if they want to receive. Their coach will loudly announce if they don't.

VI. After a fair catch, don't ask if they wish to free kick, most captains would be clueless on this.
     Exception : If there's an accepted live ball foul on 1st play after FC, I would mention that the
                     free kick option is still available.

   In this era of games lasting longer than they used to, I don't feel that we need to prolong them with needless discussions with captains. This also prevents a captain from making a bad decision. Try to address the captain by name. It shows that you respect him, and it turn, he will respect you.

That's my rant of the morning....I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions.

DISCLAIMER : This represents the rants and raves of a grumpy ole' zebra and does not necessarily reflect the views of : NFHS, MPA, MAFO, ASPCA, AFL-CIO, GOP and the like.

 tiphat:
                 

Offline Curious

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2017, 09:18:44 AM »
We've batted around captains & penalty enforcement, captains and coin toss, etc. considerably. Here's the framework of my dealings with captains and I will look forward to hearing yours......

Excellent Summary Ralph.  I agree wholeheartedly with a couple of exceptions (noted below):


I. Pregame meeting w/coaches
  A. Get numbers of all captains
  B. Get name of speaking captain - remember and use it.

II. Coin toss
  A. Have both speaking captains nearest to you.
  B. Ask visiting capt. to call before toss- ump listens in.
  C. Ask winning capt. : "Do you want to D-E-F-E-R ??"
    1. If yes, ask losing capt. : "Do you want T-H-E  B-A-L-L?"
    2. If no, then ask : "I assume you want the ball." - Usual answer : "AYUH, 'spec so""
  D. To captain with choice of ends : "Which way do you want to kickoff?

This is all good for the pre-game "coin flip performance".  I still maintain that we get ALL this info from the coach before we ever gather at the center of the field (to avoid any mistakes by the captains).  If one coach defers and the other wants the ball, why flip the coin?  Just perform the ceremony for the crowd and press box and move on. 

III. Penalty Enforcement
  A. When choice is obvious; just inform, don't ask (NFHS Manual ,p.49 I- A 5 & 6)
  B. Go slow if choice is not obvious, bring captain within earshot of coach for assistance.
  C. If double foul w/COP or enforcement with compulated ending, involve both captains.

In A & B, I still maintain we just get the coach's decision.  What happens when the foul occurs on the other side of the field from the offended team's coach? Are we going to walk the captains 50 yards to the other side - then present their options?  What if there is NO captain on the field at the time?

IV. When the captain can designate spot of ball
  A. For a try & OT I'll usually ask : "Captain, where do you want to spot the ball?" This erases the
      confusion of spotting in middle and having to move or if asked after RFP.
  B. For a TB or after a fair catch, I'll spot in middle unless asked.
  C. For a kickoff or after a safety, the kicker will usually make the request.

Agree!

V. After a score, don't ask if they want to receive. Their coach will loudly announce if they don't.

Agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe this is even still in the Book

VI. After a fair catch, don't ask if they wish to free kick, most captains would be clueless on this.
     Exception : If there's an accepted live ball foul on 1st play after FC, I would mention that the
                     free kick option is still available.

Mostly agree. There may be a late game situation where a winning or tying FG is arguably doable; so, in those situations, just ask the coach.

   In this era of games lasting longer than they used to, I don't feel that we need to prolong them with needless discussions with captains. This also prevents a captain from making a bad decision. Try to address the captain by name. It shows that you respect him, and it turn, he will respect you.

Well said!

That's my rant of the morning....I'd be interested in hearing your suggestions.

DISCLAIMER : This represents the rants and raves of a grumpy ole' zebra and does not necessarily reflect the views of : NFHS, MPA, MAFO, ASPCA, AFL-CIO, GOP and the like.

The rants and raves of another grumpy old zebra; but one, like Ralph, with common sense!

 tiphat:
               

Offline bossman72

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2017, 10:28:11 AM »
Next time I want to take a day off work, I'm going to ask the janitor, but make sure my boss is within an ear shot so he can tell the janitor if I can have the day off or not.


In this era of games lasting longer than they used to, I don't feel that we need to prolong them with needless discussions with captains. This also prevents a captain from making a bad decision.

You've quoted exactly why I don't talk to captains.  IT WASTES TIME!

First, it wastes time finding the captain.  Then it wastes time getting him over to the sideline.

Remember the golden rule:  the longer it takes us to enforce fouls, the more it looks like we don't know what we're doing.

The crux of the issue is, WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE CAPTAIN SAYS. So why are we going out of our way to involve him in penalty enforcement decisions?  This is evident by bringing him over toward the coach.  If the captain chooses to accept a penalty, then the coach immediately yells "No!  We want to decline it!"  What are you going to do?  If you are going to decline the penalty in this scenario, then you've validated my point.  It's painfully obvious that the coach makes the decision.  We don't need the captain to be playing Cyrano.


As for the coin toss, I ask "Do you want to receive or defer?"  Eliminates the possibility for a screw-up.

Offline prab

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2017, 12:55:39 PM »
We've batted around captains & penalty enforcement, captains and coin toss, etc. considerably.

I believe that the reason we continue to discuss this topic is simply that if a captain makes a "wrong" decision, the officiating crew WILL get blamed for not having sufficiently explained the options to the captain. IMO, protestations regarding speeding up the game, coach makes decisions any way, etc., are just attempts to get around the facts that high school kids make mistakes and that we get blamed for them..

Many posters have provided their methods of handling these situations.  What many (most) of these methods boil down to is an attempt to severely limit the captain's opportunity to make a "wrong" decision.  Some methods involve skirting the NFHS rules and some involve outright ignoring them. 

I see three possible scenarios:

1.  Follow NFHS rules as written.

2.  Attempt to get the NFHS to change these rules to reflect method(s) presented by contributors to this forum.

3.  Every man for himself, NFHS rules be darned.  (I predict that ten years from now, this will still be the most widely used option.)

Online GA Umpire

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2017, 02:38:44 PM »

IV. When the captain can designate spot of ball
 
  B. For a TB or after a fair catch, I'll spot in middle unless asked. 
       

Even if the fair catch is made in a side zone, you spot the ball in the middle of the field instead of at the hash mark?  (Unless asked, of course.)
I spot at the hash.

Offline bama_stripes

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2017, 06:23:40 AM »
I believe there's a reality that many, including the Rules Committee, have ignored:  In many modern HS games, we have "coin-toss captains" that may not even play in the game.

I can't tell you how many times I've looked around for a captain, only to realize that they're standing on he sideline, looking at the cheerleaders or majorettes. (When's the last time anyone saw an actual drum major?)

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2017, 07:24:15 AM »
Even if the fair catch is made in a side zone, you spot the ball in the middle of the field instead of at the hash mark?  (Unless asked, of course.)
I spot at the hash.
I spot in the middle only to indicate that the offense has their choice. I've been asked by players before why I spotted it there and have responded : "Because ,after a FC or TB, you have your choice. Would you prefer for me to spot it elsewhere?" They usually respond : "Nope, that's good - we didn't know that."

I feel good that I've taught something...I feel good that they have learned something...but that's only me. I don't believe there's any directive on how to handle this, so you could handle this as you wish.

NOTE : I inadvertently left out the inadvertent whistle (lovingly known as  :!# IW  :!#) on choices to be made. Where IWs rarely have happy endings, I would certainly involve the coach in deciding to take the ball at the location of it when the ET (eager tweeter) sounded his horn or to replay the down. Often the choice is obvious and ,like penalty options, apply the obvious one.

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2017, 07:48:39 PM »
When meeting the head coach prior to the game, I tell him if a penalty enforcement involves options, I will inform him and captain of those options; don't want captain making a different  decision than coach would like.  Captains will be told at toss to consult coach before making a decision.  This usually invokes a "Thanks."  I also ask coach if the option is obvious, such as your opponent runs for a TD and they have a holding during the play, are you okay with us taking care of obvious choice situations?  This is usually followed by a "Yep."

At the toss I congratulate players on being captains - "that tells us you have leadership abilities and those  abiliites will be called on when there is a foul and a decision is needed."  Tell them if there is a penalty, listen to the options, your coach is also going to be given the options. Make sure you check with coach before responding as first answer is what is enforced.  Tell them options will be repeated as many times as they'd like if they didn't hear or understand them. 

Then during the game, if/when there is an option situation, both the captain and the coach are informed at the same time via the "earshot" voice. Everybody's expectations are met.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 07:51:53 PM by Patrick E. »

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2017, 10:29:44 AM »
My speech at coin toss...

To coaches : (head coaches come to toss) "Coaches, do you agree to play by the NFHS sportsmanship code?"

Their usual response : "Ayuh, 'spect so" and shake hands with opposing coach and captains."

To captains : "Gentlemen, you were elected as captains not necessarily because of your athletic abilities, but because of your leadership skills. Can we rely on you helping us in keeping your teammates under control?"

Their usual response : "Ayuh, 'spect so" and shake hands  with opposing captains.

To speaking captains : (While showing them an IKE silver dollar) "Do either of you know who this guy is??

My favorite of their  responses : (about 25% know it's Ike) "Some ole' baldheaded dude who musta' done something good." "An actor that used to play in westerns." "I think it was somebody but I don't know who."

You certainly don't have to say what Patrick E. or I say, but you probably should say something.

  HAVE AN ENJOYABLE, ALL tiphat:

Offline TampaSteve

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2017, 12:58:57 PM »
It's unusual that the higher levels (NFL ,NCAA), where there's grown men, we DONt refer to them for penalties, yet for HS kids we do.


Offline KWH

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2017, 01:51:40 PM »
My speech at coin toss...

To speaking captains : (While showing them an IKE silver dollar) "Do either of you know who this guy is??

My favorite of their  responses : (about 25% know it's Ike) "Some ole' baldheaded dude who musta' done something good." "An actor that used to play in westerns." "I think it was somebody but I don't know who."

You certainly don't have to say what Patrick E. or I say, but you probably should say something.


When using an IKE dollar I ask the same question Ralph.
I get answers like: Obama, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, John Wayne and even Millard Fillmore!
For more fun, try using a Ben Franklin Half - One kid said "Looks like Jesus to me!"

Offline Ralph Damren

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2017, 03:10:35 PM »
When using an IKE dollar I ask the same question Ralph.
I get answers like: Obama, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, John Wayne and even Millard Fillmore!
For more fun, try using a Ben Franklin Half - One kid said "Looks like Jesus to me!"
   tR:oLl tR:oLl z^ z^ ^good ^talk aWaRd aWaRd tR:oLl tR:oLl ^talk ^talk ....at 4:30 EST it is time for our chapter's Gathering of ole' Buzzards (Eagles with some feathers gone). I present the new rules ...we drink...it's held at our favorite sports bar....a fun time for all !!! Hope all is well on the left coast, Kevin.

 tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl (7 man crew)

Offline Patrick E.

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2017, 06:22:23 PM »
It's unusual that the higher levels (NFL ,NCAA), where there's grown men, we DONt refer to them for penalties, yet for HS kids we do.

From the 2016 NFL OFFICIAL PLAYING RULES - RULE 18 - ARTICLE 3. CHOICE ON PENALTY OPTION: Only one captain is permitted to indicate the teamís penalty option.

http://operations.nfl.com/media/2224/2016-nfl-rulebook.pdf

In the NFL, does the R get dinged if he consults the coach on an enforcement option?

The NCAA Rules Book isn't free, and since I am working my way up to cheap, ......

Offline TxSkyBolt

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"O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2017, 07:01:53 PM »
NCAA rule book is free online


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Offline bama_stripes

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Re: "O captain, my captain...." - Walt Whitman
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 07:37:01 AM »
When using an IKE dollar I ask the same question Ralph.
I get answers like: Obama, Kennedy, Nixon, Reagan, John Wayne and even Millard Fillmore!
For more fun, try using a Ben Franklin Half - One kid said "Looks like Jesus to me!"

For Saturday morning youth games, I use a JFK half-dollar.  Occasionally, one of the kids will know who it is.