Fair Catch and Blocking

[JasonTX]

Does anyone have a video clip of a player signalling fair catch and then blocking?  I need one for a training presentation.

[sj]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfwQ86R8mrE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTt2Ux8uDwI

[JasonTX]

Perfect.  Thanks.

[ElvisLives]

Yeah, that is a good example of the illegal block, as well as very poor - actually invalid - fair catch signal.  I probably would have granted him protection, because, although not the prescribed signal, his intent was clear and given with enough time for opponents to recognize it.  But I would definitely 'talk' to him after the play and get him to make his 'wave' bigger - at least get over his head and back out to his side (outside the frame of his body).
And, without looking in the book, as I recall, the penalty is 15 yards from the Basic Spot during a scrimmage kick, so PSK would apply.  Since the result of the play was a touchback, the artificial end of the kick is the B-20.  So, we'd go half the distance from the spot of the signal, in this case.  Looks like he gave the signal somewhere between the B-10 and B-12, so, B, 1/10, B-5 to B-6.

Robert

[#92]

And, without looking in the book, as I recall, the penalty is 15 yards from the Basic Spot during a scrimmage kick, so PSK would apply.  Since the result of the play was a touchback, the artificial end of the kick is the B-20.  So, we'd go half the distance from the spot of the signal, in this case.  Looks like he gave the signal somewhere between the B-10 and B-12, so, B, 1/10, B-5 to B-6.

Robert

You're completely right.

I did check because I didn't know for sure by heart, and the penalty statement or Rule 6-5-4 is indeed rather specific:

PENALTY—Free kick: Receiving team’s ball 15 yards from the spot of the foul [S40]. Scrimmage kick: 15 yards, postscrimmage kick enforcement [S40].

So if the foul was BEHIND the end of the kick, the penalty would still enforced from the end of the kick.

[ElvisLives]

...So if the foul was BEHIND the end of the kick, the penalty would still enforced from the end of the kick.

Well, the Basic Spot is the end of the kick, yes.  But, when the spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Robert

[#92]

Well, the Basic Spot is the end of the kick, yes.  But, when the spot of the foul is behind the Basic Spot, the penalty is enforced from the spot of the foul.

Robert

I disagree. Rule 10-2-1-a reads:

For many fouls, the enforcement spot is specified in the statement of the penalty. When the enforcement spot is not specified in the statement of the penalty, the enforcement spot is determined by the Three-and-One Principle (Rules 2-33 and 10-2-2-c)[.]

Since the enforcement spot is specified in the statement of the penalty, the Three-and-One Principle is not applied.

[Kalle]

I disagree.

Feel free, but when you disagree with the King, you are almost always wrong. See rule 10-2-3-b. "Team B is taken as the team in possession with the postscrimmage kick spot as the basic spot." (Emphasis mine) The penalty statement could just as well simply read: "Scrimmage kick: 15 yards", but the rules editor has decided to remind us that PSK applies.

[ElvisLives]

Since the enforcement spot is specified in the statement of the penalty, the Three-and-One Principle is not applied.

The penalty statement reads:  Free kick: Receiving Team's ball 15 yards from the spot of the foul [S40].  Scrimmage kick: 15 yards, postscrimmage kick enforcement. [S40].

I have a feeling that you are mistaking the "postscrimmage kick spot" as being a 'specified' enforcement spot.  It is not.  By definition, the PSK spot is the end of the kick (actual or artificial).  That spot becomes the Basic Spot, if there is a qualifying PSK foul.  Once the Basic Spot is identified, then the 3 and 1 is applied (although, as RR has pointed out many times, since PSK applies only to team B, it is really only the 1 and 1 principle).  Since, in this play, the foul is behind the Basic Spot, the penalty is enforced at the spot of the foull.

10-2-3 covers this, and the last paragraph says, "...the penalty is enforced according to the Three-and-One Principle. Team B is taken to be the team in possession with the postscrimmage kick spot as the basic spot."

AR 10-2-3-I reinforces 10-2-3, stating to apply the 3 and 1 principle, with the PSK spot as the Basic Spot.  (However, please note that touching of the ball beyond the NZ, as mentioned in the AR, isn't required for PSK; the ball has to cross the NZ, and touching of the ball certainly means the ball has crossed the NZ.)

Robert

[#92]

Useful discussion, as usual.

Thanks!

[Archie]

I (working BJ) had a team a couple of times last year.  On punts from around mid-field, the returner wanted the ball to land behind him for potential touchbacks.  He would give a valid signal from his position around the B-10 and then move to one side to draw the gunners near him.  He would then aggressively run forward as if he was going to blast into a gunner, and then dodge out of the way at the last second, once even trying to sell me that the gunner ran into him.

I saw this twice, talked to both the returner and the head coach.  Next game in warmups, talked to them again.  First punt, he did the same crap to me, and barely missed touching the gunner. Very distracting and not very good sportsmanship.  But, as a good thing to cover in pre-game...very clearly talk to the returners in warm ups that we need to avoid the 15 yard fouls for blocking after a signal (if the returner has not touched the ball).

[ElvisLives]

I (working BJ) had a team a couple of times last year.  On punts from around mid-field, the returner wanted the ball to land behind him for potential touchbacks.  He would give a valid signal from his position around the B-10 and then move to one side to draw the gunners near him.  He would then aggressively run forward as if he was going to blast into a gunner, and then dodge out of the way at the last second, once even trying to sell me that the gunner ran into him.

I saw this twice, talked to both the returner and the head coach.  Next game in warmups, talked to them again.  First punt, he did the same crap to me, and barely missed touching the gunner. Very distracting and not very good sportsmanship.  But, as a good thing to cover in pre-game...very clearly talk to the returners in warm ups that we need to avoid the 15 yard fouls for blocking after a signal (if the returner has not touched the ball).

Excellent preventive officiating.
After all of these warnings, if he even so much as brushed an arm hair on an opponent, I'd be letting the laundry fly.

Robert

[Archie]

Robert...as a post-script to my punt returner story, I noticed today that the guy is still on an NFL roster...

[ElvisLives]

In the old days, teams had ways of self-policing those kinds of things.  Not so much, any more.  But, we can keep our fingers crossed, for our NFL brethren, that he becomes convinced to change his ways.

Robert