Author Topic: Extend or Not to Extend  (Read 1137 times)

Offline SideLine

  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Extend or Not to Extend
« on: August 24, 2017, 09:47:22 AM »
Rule 7-5-2-a does NOT specify a loss of down in the penalty statement.  Therefore per the direct wording of 3-3-4-b-3, we should extend the period if an illegal forward pass after a change of possession occurs and the foul is accepted during the last timed down. 

However case book 3-3-4-C states the period would not be extended. 

Thoughts?

Offline js in sc

  • *
  • Posts: 31
  • FAN REACTION: +0/-0
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2017, 10:00:26 AM »
My humble opinion would be that loss of down refers to "loss of the right to replay the down" (2-7-2).  Since the down would not be replayed after change of possession, the period would be over, regardless of which team had the ball.

Offline VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 151
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2017, 10:01:29 AM »
Rule 7-5-2-a does NOT specify a loss of down in the penalty statement.  Therefore per the direct wording of 3-3-4-b-3, we should extend the period if an illegal forward pass after a change of possession occurs and the foul is accepted during the last timed down. 

However case book 3-3-4-C states the period would not be extended. 

Thoughts?

The case play explains it perfectly in the last sentence. An illegal forward pass is a loss of down foul. But, the loss of down aspect has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement (5-2-2, as referenced in the case play). Loss of down foul = no extension of period. 7-5-2a doesn't specify a loss of down only because that particular situation ignores the loss of down aspect, not because the loss of down aspect doesn't exist. It exists, but it's ignored. Confusing somewhat, but just remember that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls, with some loss of down aspects being ignored, and it makes it easy.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 10:15:04 AM by VA Official »

Online Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2017, 10:29:00 AM »
The period is not extended. We need to remember that "loss of down" is the abridged version of "loss of right to repeat the down" and although there isn't a down to repeat after a change of possession , the loss of down provision on the penalty would remove it for qualifying for an untimed down. The following play occurred in Louisiana several years ago that prompted this :

(1) K has just taken a 2 point lead with 10 seconds to go;
(2) K kicks off to R;
(3) R's return turns into a rugby scrum;
(4) At K's 15, R1 is about to be tackled and heaves ball toward K's end zone;
(5) R2 catches the airborne heave in end zone;
(7) more flags ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag ^flag than a parade;
(8) K needs to accept IFP to cancel score = ball @ K's 20 & untimed down;
(9) enter Hans, a former soccer star, his 37 yard FG is true, Hans is the hero and heads off to the bayou with the prom queen;
(10) the following January ,Louisiana proposes this rule change;

.....and now you know the rest of the story  tiphat:

BONUS QUESTION : Which has more counties, Maine or Louisiana??

NOTE : While said story is true, Hans and the prom queen were only fictional .  tR:oLl tR:oLl tR:oLl

Offline ncwingman

  • *
  • Posts: 493
  • FAN REACTION: +28/-2
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2017, 10:37:00 AM »
BONUS QUESTION : Which has more counties, Maine or Louisiana??

Trick question. Louisiana doesn't have any counties -- they have parishes.

Online Ralph Damren

  • *
  • Posts: 2466
  • FAN REACTION: +294/-27
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2017, 10:54:43 AM »
Trick question. Louisiana doesn't have any counties -- they have parishes.

You Nailed it , NC   aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd aWaRd !!!

Offline SideLine

  • *
  • Posts: 36
  • FAN REACTION: +2/-1
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 02:11:53 PM »
The case play explains it perfectly in the last sentence. An illegal forward pass is a loss of down foul. But, the loss of down aspect has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement (5-2-2, as referenced in the case play). Loss of down foul = no extension of period. 7-5-2a doesn't specify a loss of down only because that particular situation ignores the loss of down aspect, not because the loss of down aspect doesn't exist. It exists, but it's ignored. Confusing somewhat, but just remember that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls, with some loss of down aspects being ignored, and it makes it easy.

Just playing devil's advocate here, where does it state that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls?

Offline VA Official

  • Refstripes Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 151
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-5
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2017, 02:46:17 PM »
Just playing devil's advocate here, where does it state that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls?

It doesn't. That was just my simplification. Much easier to remember than the long explanation.

Offline prab

  • *
  • Posts: 529
  • FAN REACTION: +33/-35
  • Wherever you go, there you are!
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2017, 02:53:25 PM »
I have never seen an illegal forward pass thrown after a change of possession ala 7-5-2a.  Has anyone else seen one?  What were the circumstances and how was it handled?

Offline FLAHL

  • *
  • Posts: 659
  • FAN REACTION: +41/-7
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2017, 03:31:02 PM »
I saw it once in a youth game. B intercepted and began to run it back. As he was being tackled, he threw what I guess he thought was a "lateral" to a teammate, but it was clearly forward. The illegal pass was incomplete, then we had to deal with A's coach who thought that his team recovered a fumble. 

I can't imagine a play where B intentionally throws a forward pass after a CoP.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2017, 03:34:04 PM by FLAHL »
"Never argue with stupid people.  They will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." - Mark Twain

Offline AlUpstateNY

  • *
  • Posts: 3270
  • FAN REACTION: +252/-472
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2017, 04:12:21 PM »
Just playing devil's advocate here, where does it state that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls?

Maybe NOT exactly, but given the 5 examples of Illegal Forward Pass in Table 7-5 suggests that ONLY "a" limits the proscribed penalty to 5 yards, whereas "b", "c", "d" and "e" specify "Loss of 5 yards AND loss of down".

You might consider: "ALL Illegal Pass Penalties call for a penalty of Loss of 5 yards AND Loss of Down, EXCEPT a pass after team possession has changed during the down"

Offline KWH

  • *
  • Posts: 285
  • FAN REACTION: +57/-37
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2017, 04:48:22 PM »
Just playing devil's advocate here, where does it state that all illegal forward passes are loss of down fouls?
NFHS Rules Book,
Page 83, 
FOOTBALL FUNDAMENTALS, X. 5.

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

  • *
  • Posts: 347
  • FAN REACTION: +30/-16
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 08:28:27 AM »
NFHS Rules Book,
Page 83, 
FOOTBALL FUNDAMENTALS, X. 5.

Quote from: Football Fundamentals, X. 5.
The penalty for any one of the five illegal passes is a loss of 5 yards and the down is counted except for a forward pass following change of team possession. (emphasis mine)

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 201
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-2
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2017, 09:20:11 AM »
NFHS Rules Book,
Page 83, 
FOOTBALL FUNDAMENTALS, X. 5.
Also Rule 5-2-2 ... When a foul occurs during a scrimmage down and before any change of team possession, and before a receiver is first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the neutral zone, the ball belongs to A or K after enforcement unless it is a 2-16-2h (post-scrimmage kick) foul or kick-catching interference. The number of the next down is the same as that of the down during which the foul occurred unless penalty acceptance includes a first down or loss of down, or the enforcement or the advance results in a first down. The loss of down aspect of a penalty has no significance following a change of possession or if the line to gain is reached after enforcement.

Online CalhounLJ

  • *
  • Posts: 406
  • FAN REACTION: +11/-16
  • Without officials... it is only recess.
Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2017, 01:39:20 PM »
Just to be clear, we are NOT replaying the down in the op, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Ump33

  • *
  • Posts: 201
  • FAN REACTION: +4/-2
Re: Extend or Not to Extend
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2017, 09:11:37 AM »
Just to be clear, we are NOT replaying the down in the op, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Correct, there is no extension of the period when an Illegal Pass is throne by either team and the foul is accepted.