Author Topic: Penalty and IW on Same Play  (Read 911 times)

Offline red viking

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Penalty and IW on Same Play
« on: August 28, 2017, 01:35:41 PM »
A is flagged for illegal shift at the snap and throws an interception but there is an IW (perhaps an official thought it was a dead ball foul) before the ball is caught by B. A is going to want to re-play the down to avoid the turnover but is the penalty then enforced? I believe so. If the IW was after B had possession then B would want to keep the ball at the spot of the whistle and would have to decline the penalty on A.

Let me know if this is the correct interpretation. Actually had this happen (1st scenario) during a game.

Offline Jackhammer

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2017, 01:59:17 PM »
4-2-3

ART. 3 . . . An inadvertent whistle ends the down. Inadvertent whistles are administered as follows:

a. The down shall be replayed if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while a legal forward pass or snap is in flight, or during a legal kick.

b. The team last in possession may choose to either put the ball in play where possession was lost or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is loose following a backward pass, fumble, illegal forward pass or illegal kick.

c. The team in possession may choose to either accept the results of the play at the dead-ball spot or replay the down if, during a down or during a down in which the penalty for a foul is declined, an inadvertent whistle is sounded while the ball is in player possession.

d. The penalty shall be administered as determined by the basic spot and takes precedence over inadvertent whistle administration if, during a down, a live-ball foul occurs prior to the inadvertent whistle and the penalty is accepted.
"The only whistle that kills a play is an inadvertent one"

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Offline KWH

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2017, 02:33:57 PM »
To directly answer your question, yes you are correct.

But Ralph says it better than I did so lets go with Ralph

IF the flag ^flag comes before the too eager tweet pray:; :!# :o, it occurred during a live ball and it supersedes an IW.

IF the flag  ^flag comes after the IW, it would become a dead ball foul ONLY if it could be considered a personal or UNC foul.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 11:37:21 AM by KWH »

Offline NCVAReferee

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2017, 02:48:30 PM »
KWH - Think you got those flip-flopped.

Offline Willis

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 06:53:03 AM »
KWH:  Why doesn't 4-2-3a take precedence over 4-2-3d if the interception occurs after the IW?  If the whistle sounds before the interception, the ball is immediately dead and then the interception would be of a dead-ball and therefore not a turnover.  A retains the ball, and the down should be replayed based on 4-2-3a.  Since the live ball penalty occurs before the whistle, B should have the option to accept the penalty.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 08:06:38 AM »
"What comes first, the chicken or the egg ???" - Asked by many, answered by few.

IF the flag ^flag comes before the too eager tweet pray:; :!# :o, it occurred during a live ball and it supersedes an IW.

IF the flag  ^flag comes after the IW, it would become a dead ball foul ONLY if it could be considered a personal or UNC foul.

Offline Willis

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 09:01:12 AM »
I still don't understand how B can have the option of keeping the ball if a turnover happens after an IW.  In fact, (with the exception of some immediate recoveries of a fumble) I don't understand how there can be a turnover after an IW since the IW kills play.  If a receiver hears the IW and gives up on the ball in-flight, does B really get rewarded if they keep playing and catch it?   

Offline NVFOA_Ump

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 10:04:34 AM »
Don't see any options here for the first scenario.

1. Ball is dead immediately when the whistle is sounded (ball is in the air - not in any player possession).

2.  Only "option" since the ball was loose (during the forward pass) when the whistle was sounded is to replay the down after penalty enforcement (penalty yardage enforcement is, as always, still Team B's option).


The 2nd scenario is clear, IW after interception.  Team B, in possession of the ball when the IW sounded, would opt to accept the result of the play, keep the ball, and thereby decline the penalty.
It's easy to get the players, getting 'em to play together, that's the hard part. - Casey Stengel

Offline VA Official

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 10:05:46 AM »
I still don't understand how B can have the option of keeping the ball if a turnover happens after an IW.

They don't. The above posts were referencing the aspect of the penalty in relation to the IW. Also, KWH still has his situations flip flopped, but what he intended to say is true. To answer your question, if there's an IW, all subsequent action (except for any DB fouls) is ignored because, as you said, the play is dead.

If the interception occurred after before the IW, 4-2-3c would apply. B would decline the foul and take the ball.
If the interception occurred before after the IW, 4-2-3d would apply. A would retain the ball after enforcement of the penalty.

KWH, I think this is what you intended.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 10:22:05 AM by VA Official »

Offline KWH

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Re: Penalty and IW on Same Play
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 12:06:19 PM »

If B has possession, (ie they intercepted the pass), {pause} then the whistle blows, B can (will) decline the penalty and accept the result of the play, this would make it B's ball 1st and ten at the dead ball spot. Reference 4-2-3c

If A was still in player possession, or A is still in Team Possession, (including a forward pass in flight), The penalty takes precedence over the IW and the down is replayed following enforcement, See 4-2-3d.