Author Topic: The spot where the run ends  (Read 1758 times)

Offline dch

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The spot where the run ends
« on: September 09, 2017, 11:47:01 AM »
I'm having trouble understanding Rule 2-41-9.a & .b
It seems to me that the statement regarding the related run continuing is tangled up between a & b.
The rule has read the same the last several years.  Looks like it got tangled in 2011.

Can you help my understanding the way it is written?

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2017, 12:57:31 PM »
See 2-33-2. They attempted to clarify the difference between the end of the run and the end of the related running play. As is often the case, the actual clarity level achieved is about on par with that of a nice

Let me make an attempt.

When there is a fumble, the run ends at the point of the fumble. If the fumble is recovered, a new run starts at that point.

If the fumble is by A and in or behind the NZ, then everything that happened from the snap until the recovery of said fumble is retroactively considered a single loose-ball play.

Otherwise, the fumble was part of a running play that began when the runner who fumbled obtained possession and ends when the fumble is recovered.

Online Ralph Damren

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2017, 12:03:21 PM »
You can have multiple runs on the same play and the "WHEN" of penalty enforcement will dictate the basic spot. Examples:
(1) A1 runs from A's 10 to A's 20 and fumbles;
(2) A2 scoops up fumble @ A's 30 and journeys for TD;
(3) BIB on A3 flagged @ A's 40; 
   (a) before A2's recovery = basic spot, A's 20 - spot of fumble;
   (b) after A2's recovery = spot foul, A's 40 under ABO.

It was felt that adding "related" would provide rule support and clarity for situations such as this.

PS : Roamin' Umpire, where did you find the Guinness (my favorite drink) !! :thumbup

Offline dch

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2017, 02:08:58 PM »
My confusion is not with multiple running play segments during a given down or where the basic spots are for penalty enforcement.
My question is why does rule 2-41-9.a say that the related running play continues after the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession?

Offline CalhounLJ

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The spot where the run ends
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2017, 02:30:33 PM »
My confusion is not with multiple running play segments during a given down or where the basic spots are for penalty enforcement.
My question is why does rule 2-41-9.a say that the related running play continues after the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession?
I see what you mean. It would make better sense if the "but the related run ..." statement followed the first portion of b. 
"The spot where a run ends is: b. Where the runner loses player possession if his run is followed by a loose ball, but the related run continues until the ball becomes dead or any player gains possession."


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Online Ralph Damren

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2017, 07:43:14 AM »
2-41-9b : "Where the runner loses player possession if his run is followed by a loose ball.." gives support for the basic spot being the spot of the fumble.

Offline dch

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2017, 01:03:42 PM »
Ralph,
My question is regarding 2-41-9a.  Why does it say that the related running play continues after the ball becomes dead in the runners possession?

Offline dch

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2017, 01:14:11 PM »
If the ball is dead then the down is over.  Certainly if the down is over the related running play is over.

Offline VA Official

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2017, 01:48:15 PM »
Ralph,
My question is regarding 2-41-9a.  Why does it say that the related running play continues after the ball becomes dead in the runners possession?

That's not what it says. The way it's meant to be read is broken up into two parts, separated by "but." They are:

1. "The spot where a run ends is where the ball becomes dead in the runner's possession."

2. "The related run continues until the ball becomes dead or any player gains possession." (referring to when the ball is loose)

The 2nd part overlaps with 2-41-9b as Ralph mentioned, and this also establishes a definition for the term "related run."
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 03:30:59 PM by VA Official »

Offline The Roamin' Umpire

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Re: The spot where the run ends
« Reply #9 on: September 21, 2017, 05:18:35 PM »
Ralph,
My question is regarding 2-41-9a.  Why does it say that the related running play continues after the ball becomes dead in the runners possession?

If I had to guess, the clause in 2-41-9a that starts with "but" is supposed to be attached to 2-41-9b. I wonder if this got messed up at some point - sadly, I threw my old books out somewhere along the line.